Duration: 1 hour 1 minute 36 Seconds
Simon: Simon Perry for the Submariner’s Stories Oral History Project and I’m in Gosport today. The date is the 3rd of February 2023 and I’m with …
Lesley: Lesley Ure. I am a spouse to a Naval Submariner.
Simon: Thanks very much for agreeing to do this today Lesley. The way we normally start this is asking about where you were born and go from there.
Lesley: So, I was born in St Mary’s Hospital in Portsmouth. My mum and dad are from Glasgow originally. My dad was a Shipwright and my mum worked I think in Glasgow at the time. It was very much factory-based working. However, they moved from Glasgow over to South Africa for 6 years and lived there where my mum worked in a Department Store and my dad worked as a Shipwright in a local Dockyard over there and then they moved back to Glasgow, decided that the sun wasn’t shining and moved down to Portsmouth to work in the Portsmouth Dockyard.
Simon: What is a Shipwright?
Lesley: A shipbuilder essentially. So, if you look at the Dockyards, you will have … I suppose back in the day you would have people in Glasgow waiting for more kind of like labouring work, but a Shipwright is trained, they’re quite skilled so you know building the boats. I can’t claim to know all ins and outs of it.
Simon: A cross between engineering and manufacturing.
Lesley: Yeah, absolutely.
Simon: Ok. And so … so they came down to Portsmouth for your dad to carry on making ships.
Lesley: So, in Glasgow at the time, Shipyards were closing and people were increasingly out of work. It was difficult to get work at the time. I believe it was … I think it was a Margaret Thatcher initiative to bring some of those skills down to the South where there must have just been more work available at the time, so I suppose that’s very much kind of indicative of how my family has moved around. It has been because that’s where the work would be really.
Simon: I didn’t ask you which year you were born.
Lesley: So, I was born in 1981.
Simon: Thank you. And so how was growing up? You grew up around Gosport did you?
Lesley: Yes, so growing up, obviously I was the first English born in my family. Well, technically not, my dad was actually born in London but we’re not allowed to talk about that (laughs). So, I was the first recognised if you like English born child in my family. Growing up for us, it was quite interesting really. Obviously we weren’t … we’re not native to Gosport if you like. Growing up through schools it was just my sister and I in the schools at the time and that wasn’t the case with other families because they had lots of cousins and much larger families in school. We were quite small. However, living in … so we actually lived in Armed Forces accommodation even though my dad wasn’t technically in the Armed Forces because he worked for the Ministry of Defence, so it almost felt like a little Scotland in some respects or it was certainly very multi-cultural. It was quite strange really. I suppose I maybe grew up when I was little only seeing one part of Gosport, which was huge. I mean the whole of Rowner at the time was huge. It was all Armed Forces from all different parts of the country, UK, the world, you know all living together. Lots of children, lots of play. It just felt like a massive playground really at the time.
Simon: I mean that sounds like a great way to grow up.
Lesley: Yeah, it was a good way to grow up, apart from when the neighbours all knew who you were so you could get caught doing anything (laughs). Everybody knew everyone and you know it was very much the females supported each other. You know, everybody knew each other, there was community venues, Community Centres where everybody went to. You know there was a massive community spirit back then.
Simon: A strong community.
Lesley: But it almost isolated in a sense because you know, what was happening in the rest of Gosport, I suppose more for the civilians if you like, I wouldn’t know at that point.
5 minutes 4 seconds
Simon: And so you stayed living in the same place for how long?
Lesley: So, I stayed living in Gosport until I met my now husband. I was 18 when we met and we moved to Glasgow together when I was 20.
Simon: Did that seem strange with the sort of family roots?
Lesley: It was easier because of the family roots to be honest. I’ve always seen Glasgow as my second home and you know at the time still had plenty of relatives living there, so I was very familiar with it obviously so it felt easier to settle than I suppose other Naval spouses would have had in different areas.
Simon: And that was work related for Midge was it?
Lesley: Yes, well he’s Scottish anyway, so just happened to meet a Scottish person down in England, so yes, he was based at Faslane at the time due to the type of boat that he was on. He had to be … they were kept up in Faslane at the time so it there wasn’t really an option really. I suppose if you wanted to be together that’s where I had to be.
Simon: And how did you meet?
Lesley: So, (laughs), when I was at College, I used to work as a Silver Service Waitress in HMS Sultan, and had a great time, a great few years there, it was amazing. However, I did promise I would never (laughs) settle down with someone from the Armed Forces.
Simon: Who did you promise? Yourself?
Lesley: Myself (laughs). I thought, no, this isn’t going to be me and actually I really was not looking for a relationship at the time. I was loving life, loving freedom and independence, and certainly not looking to set up with anyone and it just kind of happened really. I think I actually did the chasing (laughs).
Simon: So, you met at a dinner or something …
Lesley: No, I was working and I think at the time you know you would get chatting to people, then you would … your face would be familiar so if you were on nights out in the Town and things you would just go over and start talking and the rest is history.
Simon: Ok. Right. And what was going out in Gosport like in those days?
Lesley: Much better than it is now. There’s been a big difference. I mean you know, the military presence obviously we can now … partly we can now see you know with businesses and Pubs closing you know the night life not being as vibrant as it used to be, we can see that it’s had a massive impact on the Town. Back then we just had some great nights out, all the Pubs are open, it’s just not like that anymore. I think there’s been a massive change, but then that could be to do with the fact tat the cost of living and rises as well, I think there’s many different factors to consider, but back then it was great. Great nights out.
Simon: And back then I mean there was a Pub on every corner was it? I had heard …
Lesley: Well not so much. That’s probably a bit before my time, but absolutely at one point in Gosport, I mean yeah, I think there was probably many competitions if you could get from even one end of Brockhurst Road to the other would be a miracle due to the …
Simon: What if you were stopping at each Pub and having a half a pint.
Lesley: Absolutely. So, there was that. I think there is some data around that I think Gosport ranked quite highly at one point, considering the population of the people in Gosport compared to how may Pubs there was so, yeah, quite a few.
Simon: What were the favourite haunts for you in your day then?
Lesley: Oh crikey. So, we would go into The Mess because as a student we would save lots of money. There would be cheap alcohol or we would go to each other’s houses and then so the G and D was a popular one, the George and Dragon. We would go into there. Of course, there was Emma’s Night Club (laughs) which was interesting. However, because I went to College over in Portsmouth, I did spend a lot of the time over the water as well because that’s where you know a whole other half of my friendship group would be. As a young adult, my friendships were mainly around work and other students over the water, so I probably began to spend less and less time in Gosport itself really.
Simon: I guess where you grow up is less exciting than somewhere that’s over the water isn’t it?
Lesley: I think it’s just that’s where my friends were as well so you wouldn’t invite them over here if you’ve got more places to go to over the other side.
10 minutes 4 seconds
Simon: What were your memories of Emma’s ‘cos it’s come up … Emma’s has come up a lot, in particular the carpets of Emma’s.
Lesley: (Laughs), that’s before my time. I suppose you heard about the chicken and chips as well …
Simon: Yes, mostly ended up on the carpet I heard.
Lesley: … they would have a …so it changed and there was no chicken and chips and there was no carpet. When I went there it was still mainly military personnel that went up there. It suited us because I suppose we’d formed friendships with many of the people serving at the time. You just do, your seeing each other every evening, you’re chatting and it makes sense, you bump into each other out and then you would go, you know, where the group would want to go. There was a few kind of civilian men I suppose if you like that would go in locals that would go in at the time but not many. Now it’s very much changed. Now local and young people, males and females they will all go in there, so it’s changed yet again.
Simon: It does seem amazing that it’s still going doesn’t it?
Lesley: I’m not even entirely sure …
Simon: Was there a time when it didn’t exist? Is there a before Emma time?
Lesley: (Laughs), I don’t know. I wonder if it is still going actually. I think it is.
Simon: I think I walked past it and there was a sign for it.
Lesley: Yeah, I think it is.
Simon: When they’re looking at the dinosaurs they’re going to be designing it or describe it in terms of how the times of Emma sort of thing.
Lesley: I think things change. Probably what’s happened and if you use Emma’s as an example of being something that was completely military and probably was a way for people to meet at one point shall we say, that then you know through my going out and now, it was becoming just a place to go maybe because we were more limited to where we could go because there wasn’t so many places open late as they used to be, so I think that’s probably where we’ve seen that change coming and obviously we don’t have the same number of establishments open as what we used to so …
Simon: Ok. So, then Glasgow, and that was … had you become married at that point or …?
Lesley: No, so we moved to Glasgow when I was 20 and we had my first son Callum when I was 21, so he was born in Glasgow. Midge and I didn’t get married for another 11 years. I don’t think he was home long enough to plan a wedding. I don’t think we ever knew when he was coming home so we spent about I think it was just under 3 years in Glasgow. After having Callum, I went back to work really early. I think Callum was only about 7 months because it’s very lonely. You know, when you have a baby, you’re so restricted for the first time and his family would be working and he was obviously be on duties. Sometimes because of the duties you wouldn’t see him for 2 days and I would just be on my own. I think I remember going some days going 2 days without speaking to anybody, having no social contact which was really sad really. I suppose if I’d lived on a married patch, or Armed Forces accommodations sorry, I would have had that community, but I never have, so it was quite isolating. So, I went back to work very early at the time I was qualified as a Beauty Therapist and that really suited me because it was a very social job, so I met friends and I actually really enjoyed my time in Glasgow. It’s a great experience but when I fell pregnant with my second son, Declan, and Midge was about to join another submarine, I thought I can’t go through that again with 2 children so that’s when we decided to, or I decided mainly to be honest, that I needed to be back in Gosport with my family and friends. I needed that support and that’s where I stayed, so as a Service wife, I decided to you know, not follow Midge around in his career, I wanted my children to have the stability of living in one area and having their family around and having those consistent friendships which is really important to me, so I pretty much was a single parent because even if he was home, or wasn’t serving at sea, he was working and you know that would be in Faslane and then later in Plymouth so you know very rarely at home, so I just, I chose a bit of a different life really and I suppose again with us not living in Armed Forces accommodation, I was quite detached almost. I think my experience is probably very different from other spouse’s experiences maybe, although that is changing. We’re seeing more and more people are choosing to live in private rentals or owning their own home and living life because if I talk about it from a female’s point of view, historically perhaps women did stay at home and they had jobs that they could easily move around to suit with their partner’s and that maybe it was my generation that we struggled maybe, we didn’t want that. We wanted to have careers, we wanted to work, and for me that was very important. I’m really proud of my husband, I’m really proud of his achievements. However, I want to be proud of my achievements that aren’t just connected to me being a mum and a Naval wife. He’s done really, really well, that’s his achievements but we’re both quite independent from each other in that respect if that makes sense, you know?
16 minutes 25 seconds
Simon: And do you think that was the first 3 years in Glasgow that gave you that clarity to do that?
Lesley: It makes you … so , I grew up really quickly. I think, I had a family young. When I first met my husband, I suppose I was, obviously he wasn’t my husband then but I allowed him to make most of the decisions, so relating to finances, or what we did, you know I think there’s a 7 ½ years age gap and I think that I felt that I didn’t have the experience to make perhaps some of the life decisions but that soon changes because you’re left on your own, you are having to make decisions that you know affect your whole family. You have to take responsibility for things really, really early on. I think it’s been really healthy for me. It’s taught me to be really independent. I don’t think I would have had that if it wasn’t for the experience of being a Service wife to be honest.
Simon: So, those 3 years although tough, have been informative.
Lesley: Oh yeah, and it wasn’t you know … I suppose my experience of being a Naval wife on the whole has been very positive. My husband and I, we would not have the relationship that we have had it not been for that. I know it’s challenging and believe me at the time, when the boys were babies, it was so, so stressful, you’re exhausted and you know you just don’t have that same support. Now I know that’s not just for Naval wives. There’s a lot of single parents out there or there’s people you know if you’ve got a partner that’s a serving Police Officer, anyone that has these jobs that can take them away from home or for long periods of time where you’re left, it’s very, very difficult. However, for me, I suppose being with a Submariner now, we’re near on 23 years, and I feel that I went through this kind of process from beginning to end and we’re coming out the other side. There’s massive highs and lows. It’s like an emotional rollercoaster, and do you know what, if you don’t have those lows, you’re just … I feel for me that’s made us stronger. We’re very close, we appreciate each other, we’ve never taken each other for granted. Every time we come home from somewhere, a holiday, I’m so appreciative that we’re coming home together because usually if we went away somewhere as a family, that was because he was due to go away. So, there’s still these things, these habits I suppose or these emotional responses that you build up that are very much connected to those experiences of being married to someone in the Armed Forces. However, I think for us, looking back we couldn’t have … we wouldn’t have wanted it any differently. It’s made us who we are. I think we appreciate each other so much more. We went through a process that many people can’t get through and that’s proven in the divorce rates, separation rates of people married to Submariners, and believe me, there have been times that have been so, so difficult. I think even at one time Midge even discussed coming out altogether. Missing the children, not seeing them grow up became increasingly difficult for him as they got older. Not so much when they were babies, it’s very much I think he thought you know, Leslie’s got that, she can take care of that, but as they got older, you know he really missed us and it was difficult for him to go away and you know, I do think that you’ve just got to get through it. I think if you just let things ride that storm, your children get older, things get easier and then before you know it you’re at the other end really.
20 minutes 33 seconds
Simon: I guess for him it’s … children change so fast sometimes, certain periods where they change it seems enormously, and if you’re not seeing them every day, if you see them six months between or whatever, it must be a bit off a wow! Gosh! What have I missed?
Lesley: Absolutely. And for the children, you know my eldest, when he was little, if we ever said goodbye, he would have quite an emotional response because he didn’t like goodbyes. My youngest, I wasn’t even thinking one evening. Midge came home from sea and my dad was round and I went to drop my dad off. I just went in the car, drove away and Declan screaming hysterically at the top of the stairs because I had left him with a stranger. At that point in his life, say probably about a year maybe, I had left him with a stranger and I hadn’t even thought about it. For a baby, that’s like ‘oh my goodness, my mum’s just left.’ That’s quite incredible. For us, he was great, Midge is such a relaxed parent and he allowed me to parent, so he didn’t come home and insist that things were done differently, because sometimes that transitioning home could be just as challenging as them going, so he handled that beautifully, just allowed me to kind of take the reins really and he wouldn’t really get involved with the kind of you know, challenging the children’s behaviour for example or you know putting consequences in place for the boys. He wouldn’t really get involved in that because why would you when you’re only home for such a short space of time. What was wonderful for us is when he came off submarines as the boys were hitting their teenage years, so then he was around for all of that, so I feel he was there when it was really, really needed though which was great.
Simon: Yes because they can be quite challenging, the teenage years.
Lesley: Not, well …
Simon: Not for your boys?
Lesley: No, I’ve loved the teenage years. They’re great. Do you know our family is very, very close, and the boys, you know, I don’t know what a perfect upbringing looks like, I have no idea, but we’re very lucky as a family. The boys are terrific, well turned out, you know, they are obviously resilient, there’s been life lessons for them at a young age which there are for many children but you know some of theirs are connected with being Armed Forces children, but no, they’re terrific. The teenage years has been the easiest years, I don’t know why (laughs). I don’t know why but it has just been a pleasure really.
Simon: So, that’s interesting. I was thinking about it beforehand of when anyone comes back but we’re talking about Submariners. When a Submariner comes back after a long period of time, you’ve had your way of living, they’ve had their way of living, so how do those two come together? But you’ve said it’s been no problem at all.
Lesley: I think you’ve got to … I think the key is you have to allow each other to be who you are. You can’t control the other person because everyone will cope with things in their own way and they will need what they need in order to get through things. So, for example, I didn’t realise that before he was due to go away, I would slowly detach myself, so I didn’t realise this. I became more distant, probably became more challenging and it was almost like … this is going to sound really strange and I don’t know if other people would be able to relate to it, if I didn’t like him very much when he left, that would be easier for him to go. So, I think many years later, I wish I’d seen this before, I did see a book that explained this kind of emotional response and how we will detach ourselves and I suppose that was my way of coping. My way of coping was to detach myself in the situation and focus on what mattered and that was the needs of my children when their dad was away and how we would kind of manage that, so and again, this is going to sound really awful when I look back now but we didn’t do things such as write each other Valentines cards if he was away, or Birthday cards. We didn’t do those things and I’m wondering if maybe that’s why we did ultimately cope with it so well was because we just cut ourselves off and got on with it.
25 minutes 27 seconds
Simon: Right, the fact of life is, you’re away, we’re here, let’s just do that.
Lesley: Absolutely. So, I can definitely look back and now understand why we did things the way we did and actually for us that probably worked so …
Simon: And so, on the communication side, I’ve heard about ‘family grams.’ You didn’t do that though?
Lesley: I think we did those a little bit in the beginning, and then it would just be waiting for that phone call.
Simon: What do you mean that phone call?
Lesley: When he would surface, so obviously I never knew when that would be, or I might have a rough idea when that would be but you know, even thinking about mobiles then and not even having them at some periods of our relationship, so you couldn’t sit by the landline and wait. The times he would come in, and you’d have the boys and the phone would be … and it would be him and he’d left a message of course. That’s your only opportunity to speak in some cases.
Simon: Oh really, it’s just that time.
Lesley: Yeah, very … it’s all very heightened I think when it’s … it’s that charged energy and when you hear their voice it’s like you can’t quite believe you’re hearing their voice because you haven’t seen them for so long so Midge went away for example when Declan was … my second son, when he was 9 weeks … no, he went away when he was 2 weeks old for 9 weeks. You know it’s quite incredible isn’t it when you think …
Simon: Yeah, I mean you’ve very much got your hands full at that point. So, that’s interesting. That phone call means everything or if you’re trying to detach …
Lesley: It’s everything. It’s all very charged and I don’t know if other people can relate to that where you’re under so much pressure all of a sudden to try and condense weeks of events or things all into one and have I missed something and I think that obviously you know I don’t want to speak for him, but I know he would be concerned what would she say, like ‘what’s happened when I’ve been away.’ We’ve not had that luckily so that’s been, you know we’ve been really fortunate but of course he would be nervous, what’s kind of happening at home. Is everybody ok? But yeah, you were just trying to just frantically cram a weeks’ worth of events into a couple of minutes telephone call really.
Simon: I guess those things, when everyone wants everything to go wonderfully can bring a pressure of its own.
Lesley: Absolutely.
Simon: Because you’re, ‘it’s got to be brilliant’ and then it’s … yeah, it becomes tense because you’re trying to be brilliant (laughs).
Lesley: That’s true, that was my world (laughs) so absolutely I remember just … you know he’s just been away; you just want him to see everything at it’s best because you appreciate that haven’t been fortunate enough to be around their children for that time, their family, their friends, sleep in their own beds, you know be able to go to kitchen when they want. All these freedoms that you know I suppose I would just take for granted, so you just want the house to be tidy, of course the kids are to be behaved perfectly and not get dad (laughs) and everything’s going to be perfect. It’s ridiculous when I look back now. I don’t know if that is common for people to do that or if again I was very young when I had the boys so was it that? Was I … you know we hear as we get older we don’t kind of stress about things as much. I don’t know. I don’t know what it was down to but certainly when I look back now I think that was absolutely ridiculous and why did you waste so much energy on that because I ended up ruining it then when I would get stressed that it wasn’t all going perfectly, so I was the problem (laughs), not the fact that I hadn’t put that last load of washing on before he came home, so (laughs).
Simon: And with the phone calls … one of the interviews I did was someone explaining about how I think it was 4 or 5 times he had called home, called his wife to say, “Oh, we’re coming home now” and then they were diverted onto … now can you remind me, was Midge on bombers or what was he on?
Lesley: Oh crikey …
30 minutes
Simon: Was it …?
Lesley: He was on both types at one point. It depends on whether he … I think bombers was Scotland. Oh, I might get confused now, it’s been quite a few years.
Simon: That was more predictable I understand because they’re going to go off, they’re going to hide, or not hide but they’re going on their Patrol for however long. I guess, it doesn’t matter about … I’m confusing myself with the question. The question was, what is it like to receive a call say,” I’m going to home in a week” and then to not hear from them because they’ve had to go under the water again?
Lesley: So, that would be ok if that’s what happened. I just remember a 9-week thing, 9 weeks delay and I don’t know why 9 weeks was always the thing or whether that’s just me.
Simon: That’s a long time.
Lesley: I don’t even know if it was always 9 weeks but for some reason that just sticks in my memory. 9 weeks, oh my goodness, and when you’ve been counting down the days and somebody tells you 9 weeks, you just think, “Oh you are joking.” It’s soul destroying almost. I mean Midge and I again not to sound too negative because again there’s been many, many positives and I want to be really clear about that, I just remember thinking I’m wishing away my 20s. My 20s were just … and it was just waiting for him coming home or counting the days and our lives revolved around when he was home, when he was away, you know the experience of being a parent wasn’t really what I thought it would be because of all the additional stress factors you would have of just being that person responsible for everything, so there was that. And I do think you know I absolutely wished my 20s away. It was just a bit of a blur so …
Simon: I guess also that thing of it’s under neither of your controls. You know, your not deciding it’s going to be 9 weeks or 2 weeks or whatever it is, or next day, and nor is he. It’s somebody else, faceless person that is making these decisions. You just have to rearrange your life around it.
Lesley: Absolutely. 100%. You have no choice. There’s very little to cling onto in terms of consistency and we al perform better if we’re in a routine or we understand what to expect, so for families that are regularly out of routine, it can be very difficult and you know that’s probably why we see so many people under pressure in those situations because they just want to … I think for children especially routine understanding what to expect, to be involved in that planning is really important to their development and if they’re not having that, you can see how, that’s probably why so many service children are being supported emotionally and with anxieties because it can take its toll I suppose.
Simon: I had a question. When you went to Glasgow, was there any option to move into Armed Forces accommodation, and you decided not to do that?
Lesley: Absolutely. We could have …
Simon: What formed that opinion?
Lesley: I think it’s probably that independence side of me again maybe. I think, yes, we could have done couldn’t we? Maybe it was work, maybe at the time I would have more work opportunities in Glasgow. My husband’s family was living just outside of Glasgow so that would have been …
Simon: You’ve got that network.
Lesley: That would have been a good thing as well, but I don’t think that’s a route I would have ever wanted to go down. It’s interesting, he must have felt the same way and I don’t really remember us discussing it that much. We both just went with that plan really to live in Glasgow. It was never really … the other options were never really discussed so we were probably just singing from the same hymn sheet without really realising it. But I’m glad about that. I’m glad that ultimately, I know that there were times that it would have been helpful, but for me personally I glad we made the options that we did really.
Simon: Ok. So, then your second child is expected and you decide to move down to Gosport again because of the network support, family network and friends. Where did you live when you were doing that?
Lesley: So, our first house was just off Brockhurst Road, and you know, a great house for us. It was just absolutely ideal for me raising the boys, so we actually rented our property out in Glasgow and bought down here and we lived there for I think about 8 years. 8 years we lived there for, my sons went to local schools and then we moved house to where we are now for our children moving into the Secondary phase and that was it really.
35 minutes 25 seconds
Simon: And when you came back to Gosport, did you have support of other submarine families ‘cos your own personal network was so strong, you felt you didn’t need that?
Lesley: No, It wasn’t that it was so strong, it was really, really difficult. I suppose maybe that’s what was missing because your family, they’ll try and be there for you and support you but ultimately you’ve got involved in something that they can’t control either and they have their own lives so I remember weekends always being particularly lonely, and I don’t know if other people experienced this because you don’t really want to bother your family, so with my sisters, they would have been working all week and really wanting the weekend and probably going out for dinner with their partners and enjoying themselves. You feel like you wouldn’t want to intrude on their relationships so that was always a thing for me. Weekends were quite lonely, during the week was fine, you know everyone was in their routines but weekend were quite difficult and I suppose going to events on your own as well, you’re always responsible for your children. You can’t share the parenting. It’s on you and so it was hard, again when they were smaller. As they got older, to be honest we didn’t really notice it as much. It was a case of, ‘Oh, are you home or not, can you come to this or not? Ok that’s fine or if you are that’s great” but yes, I don’t suppose I had anybody around me really that understood what I was going through. I would meet people at events but not really continue with those relationships so I’m not quite sure why that is.
Simon: Going into the relationship with Midge, did you … was it what you thought it was going to be like? It sounds like it was quite different. It’s a kind of silly question really ‘cos when you go into a relationship with anyone you’ve got no idea what its going to be like. I guess you have a vague idea of hopes and dreams with it but I guess it’s more about what would it be like to be in a relationship with a Submariner was did you have any ideas in advance of going into that?
Lesley: I think when you fall in love with somebody, particularly when you’re young, and you fall in love with somebody, you don’t really think about the consequences as much (laughs). You don’t really think about what am I signing up to? You know you just I think that’s the beauty of you know of being young. You kind of leap in and don’t think about the consequences. I didn’t even really think about anything. ‘Oh yes, this is great, let’s move to Glasgow and start a life together.’ I don’t know if I had any idea really about what the challenges would be or you know what the positive aspects would be. I think again that was probably due to my age. I had never lived with anybody else before or had that kind of long-term relationship with anybody before, so I didn’t have anyone to compare it to which in hindsight was probably a good thing (laughs). I probably didn’t know things, I probably accepted things being more challenging than perhaps somebody else would have done. I do wonder if we had made the decision not to move in together so soon, if we would have lasted … we maybe wouldn’t have lasted. You know if we’d lived separately, I don’t know how … we didn’t kind of have the social media or things that you have now, the ways of connecting, so perhaps the relationship wouldn’t have worked. We’re both very family orientated. We both love that idea of the family unit and I suppose once we created our family unit, it was very important that we stayed together. And that’s not been any hardship, but we both have that same settling side to us I think where family and the settling of our families and being together, parenting together was very, very important and I think if you have similar ways of looking at things like that, that’s what makes the relationship work. I think at the core you have to have similar values and I think it’s very difficult to get that isn’t it because attraction and all those things that you initially have in a relationship, that wears … it dies wear off in time and I always say, I don’t know if it’s the most beautiful description but I always say that we’re like a bramble bush which ok it’s not the most attractive thing to consider, but actually it’s very strong and all of our experiences together has made us stronger and stronger and stronger. You know we went through so much together. Experiences whether they’re good or whether they’re difficult, it just makes you a stronger couple. Does that make sense? But ultimately I just think it just comes down to that having a similar moral compass, similar family values where it doesn’t matter what people throw at you, if you’ve got your health, you will stay together. There’s no way I would have made my husband not … you know there’s no way that I would have ended a relationship. You know it’s not his fault that his job has this impact on his family. I think it would have been awful to have said, “You know I’m sorry this isn’t working.” In my opinion, I’m not speaking for anybody else, to do that to somebody when all they’re doing is trying to go to work and earn a living for their family.
41 minutes 38 seconds
Simon: That’s a really interesting thought, I hadn’t considered it from that point of view.
Lesley: You’re loyal to them because they’re going through that as well, and you know, you have to understand that that’s not his choice and he probably already felt terrible about some of the things and you know, the least I think we could do was to give him a nice family home to come back to. You know, he’s the one off doing this. Who in their right mind would want to be on a submarine and go under the water (laughs) living in a smally bunk and shared with God knows how many other people? I mean you know it’s … crikey.
Simon: Well actually that’s one thing is the smelly side. That’s an interesting side of … other people have spoken about … well this was diesel I think, the clothes having a smell and for a long time afterwards. How was that process?
Lesley: I think I was actually there when we were standing talking about that the other day, and yeah, for me I had terrible morning sickness when I was pregnant with my first son, and it was just the overalls in the machine. I could not cope with it. That mixed with then the Lenor Summer Breeze and I just don’t know what happens. I think your brain makes this connection that overalls are bad, therefore anything else that you’re putting in the wash is also bad and it’s going to make you violently ill, and even now those smells, it just takes me right back to feeling violently ill again. It was just awful and it just stinks everything out and you know things get stuck to the Velcro and oh, it’s just … he although he never came back in some of the conditions that I’ve heard of and particularly for older Submariners so I think I’m probably quite fortunate that way, or maybe he left a lot of stuff at work as well so, but yeah, the smells are definitely …
Simon: So on the nuclear one, it wasn’t … obviously they don’t have diesel although there was some diesel onboard I think but you could still smell it, so it was the diesel smell rather than I don’t know what nuclear smells like (laughs).
Lesley: I don’t know (laughs). I’m not sure, I don’t know about that. I just know yeah; it wasn’t a great smell.
Simon: It was not good.
Lesley: That mixed with the hops in Glasgow. So, there was a Brewery not far from us over the other side of the river, and the smell of the hops, I mean it was just awful and I’d go around and actually put the plugs in the sink because the smell would just actually come up through every vent, so I just remember going around, and it’s interesting isn’t it how we … I think that came up previously, how we strongly, we connect smells to something more than our visual memories sometimes isn’t it? It just evokes really strong feelings.
Simon: Um, yeah. So, I guess that’s one thing you didn’t miss when he stopped being on the submarines or (laughs).
Lesley: I don’t know if I missed anything. I think it taught us many life lessons and it’s made us into really robust characters and it has made our children into really robust characters. We … some people will take lessons in life and I’m not saying that it doesn’t feel like you’re breaking at the time, it can do, but some people will take those life lessons and learn from them and make them stronger, or you won’t. You’ve got choices. You can either take it and run with it or you can’t. I know it’s really difficult when you’re exhausted and sometimes you can’t see things clearly and you know I have memories of that myself, but just for anyone going through those experiences like, juts try and relax into it, just try and not set expectations too high because it’s just ridiculous and you’re just going to use up an unnecessary amount of energy and you need all the energy you can get so just try and be realistic with your expectations and give yourself a break (laughs) you know.
46 minutes
Simon: And where did you … so when did you decide to go back to work and that was down in Gosport times I guess?
Lesley: Yes, so obviously I worked up in Glasgow, went back to work when Callum was very young. I think down in Gosport I think it was about 2 years from having Declan, because at the time with childcare, to pay for two children to go into childcare there’s no way I would have earnt enough at the time to be able to cover that really, so I think Declan was about 2 when I went back into work and worked as a Beauty Therapist down here but it wasn’t quite the same as a small Town. It’s not as interesting as you like, it’s like Hotels and bigger places up in a City, and then I decided to retrain really. I thought about working with families, Children Centres, Sure Start Centres became a big thing then and I realised that you know something that I was trained to do I didn’t really enjoy anymore, it wasn’t really for me. I think we grow and change. The average you change your career three times or something like that, I don’t know, so went back to training and started working in the Sure Start Centres and family support and child protection and I suppose being able to … my experience has probably helped me to empathise with a lot of families and their stress factor. There’s things that I’ve learnt and skills that I’ve learnt along the way but I’ve also been able to bring some personal experience into that as well, not that they would know, but it just help me to kind of empathise and …
Simon: You can identify situations and think about how you’d solved it.
Lesley: Yeah, absolutely.
Simon: And was that easier for you because … was it easier to, not to distract yourself, that doesn’t sound right. It gives you another focus apart from …
Lesley: I know what you’re … I think for me, and again you know I don’t want it to feel like I’m speaking on behalf like service wives in general. For me, I had to carve out something for myself and for a multitude of reasons I was a young parent, there’s a stigma attached to that. It doesn’t matter whether you live in your own property or you … there’s a stigma. I was probably very keen that I really didn’t want that. Now I probably would think, well, I don’t really care about the judgement of those people if they think that way, but you feel like you still have to pave your way when you’re younger I think and you know, for me I didn’t want that stigma attached to me. You know, I’m the parent of boys, it was really important to me that they saw mum go to work and gave a career and you know, that’s just how I wanted things to be and to be honest I was never very good at staying at home. I think ultimately I just wasn’t very good at it. The play dates and going … I just didn’t like it (laughs). It just wasn’t for me. I just couldn’t wait to get back to work and so it suited me to have something, to achieve things that made me proud that didn’t involve my husband or my children necessarily. For me that was really important.
Simon: And what you do now is help other service families. Is that right? Have I understood that correctly?
Lesley: Yeah, so I at the moment strategically plan for the offer for our Armed Forces families and do some direct work for the whole community when it comes to delivering some positive parenting strategies and programmes and you know, but essentially yes, looking at the needs of the Armed Forces Community in the local area but also the needs of Gosport on the whole and how the two sit next to each other which they do. They blend so lovely because it just happens that our Armed Forces Community are so connected to Gosport and probably … crikey, I wouldn’t even like to think of the statistics but you wonder how many people now living in Gosport had a connection to the Armed Forces. Ok, it might have been grandad but I bet you it’s really high. What would Gosport have been if it wasn’t for that Armed Forces presence. So, yes, answered your question. It is very much I suppose now I’m looking into ways that we could support people, support families that maybe before they didn’t have that. Making it easier for them to access. When my boys were younger, even now, even before I took this job, I had no idea of what was available and that’s probably because I lived independently. I had absolutely no idea of all the Services that were around to support and even though there are more Services around now and there’s social media and family support, what’s not happening is they’re not under one roof and I suppose that’s what we’re trying to do for Gosport is to connect where previously there was a disconnect, so that families that are in the Town for a short space of time can easily identify places to go when they need support. I wish I had that when mine were small. You know I wish I didn’t have to live in Armed Forces accommodation to meet people that were like me, if you like. I wish I could have dropped into a group and you know, played with my children, understood that I could see people that were going through similar experiences to what I was, you know so that was very absent for me.
52 minutes 2 seconds
Simon: Yeah, and what services are coming to Gosport these days? Is it still Submariners or is it Navy mostly?
Lesley: So, I mean I don’t know how much is public knowledge so I am probably going to tread a bit carefully. However, our Submariner Fleet with obviously Dolphin closing that’s a lot smaller now compared to … I don’t know if you’ve seen the old pictures of Gosport with the Submariners lined up like sardines.
Simon: I’ve seen the submarines, like 30 of them.
Lesley: Yeah, could you imagine how, yeah sorry, submarines, could, you imagine how incredible that would be, so that’s obviously gone and you know I think the Navy as a whole has probably decreased in numbers maybe of personnel all over. I’m not quite sure but yeah, there’s definitely a huge reduction and we see it in the area, things have definitely changed.
Simon: What are the changes you’ve seen in Gosport then?
Lesley: So, you think before, we’ve discussed obviously the presence, the obvious presence of serving members, their families, so their families and what they would bring to spending. You know spending in the area, people that have the money to spend. Jobs, lots of people were kept in jobs due to the Naval Establishments. I mean the whole of Rowner was built to accommodate our Armed Forces. That’s quite incredible. I’m not quite sure when it is, I think it was like the ‘60s I might be wrong. That’s huge. How many families would have come to this area and you know, now your Armed Forces accommodation, well it’s just pockets in areas, very small pockets. That’s a huge difference isn’t it? The Town on a Saturday for example, it was mobbed. I used to get lost on a Saturday always as a kid.
Simon: Because of just seas of people.
Lesley: Packed, absolutely packed and there is still a high population in Gosport but it’s changed so much then, so I suppose we’re seeing that in High Streets all over, but there is a definite connection between spending, having that free income to spend. You know when you have all these Armed Forces accommodation, the rents low and you know they’re having an income.
Simon: People have got disposable money, right.
Lesley: And apologies to people that you know that might not have been the case, but generally we see that as being the case as in if you look now, with living expenses huge and people renting or buying locally, the cost of living just went up massively, you know people don’t have that and we’re definitely seeing it. Yeah I think it’s probably a lot to do with why so many Pubs have closed as well. There is a change thankfully in the drinking culture relating to the Navy, particularly when you think Submariners going on their run ashore and letting their hair down. I think there has been a change. I think people are encouraged to live more healthy lifestyles and that’s probably why we’re seeing less people out and Pubs closing, but also I think there is just less of them to go out really.
55 minutes 43 seconds
Simon: And, I mean this is funded by the ‘High Street HAZ.’ What would be a good thing to happen to Gosport do you think, could change?
Lesley: I think what would be good with Gosport , perhaps Restaurants. There is money to spend in Gosport. People have money to spend in Gosport. I think that you know maybe doing something with the Front of the Town, so we do see places that I say are nice to go in Gosport, people are going to them, they are spending, so I don’t know why we can’t have more than that so perhaps our habits have changed in terms of our shopping habits which we’re seeing everywhere but Gosport is a really attractive … it’s an attractive place to live. I mean there are far worst places to stay and I think that by making the Town a nice place to sit, a nice place to perhaps have a drink, have a bite to eat, I think that’s probably the direction. And also, really shout about it’s historical value and presence. There aren’t many areas that have that massive level of history. I just think if we brought more ‘lets look at Gosport differently from what it used to be, let’s look at it as a place for tourism.’ You know have things around, have it a place where people want to go because we’re never going to be able to go back to where we were. We’re never going to have the Armed Forces presence here that we had before. That’s gone, that’s changed and like many areas that have changed because with industry so we mentioned the closure of the Dock Yards, when you think about coal miners, things like that, there are so many areas that have changed so you’ve just got to adapt and I think that Gosport needs to shout more about its history and what it’s known for and people need to be proud of their place within that and they way that they’ve shaped Gosport. I think that’s really what can bring that connection back again really.
Simon: I mean you think about the number of Submariners around the world that have been to Gosport to be trained here. The impact that’s had is huge and as you said, 30, 40 submarines lined up. Just to think of the contribution that’s made to the country is extraordinary.
Lesley: Absolutely. I don’t know if Gosport has a good reputation. I’m not sure what it’s like to live anywhere else as a Submariner’s wife but it certainly … I think Gosport probably got a bit of a bad reputation. I’m not quite sure why that is because I haven’t lived in the other areas where they would be based, if that makes sense. So yeah, I’m not quite sure why that would be, but for me I think Gosport … well it’s been a terrific place to bring up my family. You know, we’ve been able to give then a good lifestyle here and you know they’ve enjoyed their experience, they’re enjoyed going to school, so for us it’s worked. You know I’ve been happy to bring them up here really and I think my husband feels really settled here , which is great considering this isn’t his home. Well, he sees it as home now, but you know he’s not from here so …
Simon: One thing I was just thinking about how the SETT is such a dominant building. Is it something that the Escape Tower, the Training Tower, was that something that you were conscious of when you were growing up or did it just become part of …?
Lesley: The Diving Tower?
Simon: Yeah.
Lesley: No, you just get used to it. If you’re a child and your exposed to something on a regular basis, you just accept that. That just becomes part of the picture.
Simon: That just happens in a …
Lesley: So I suppose again, all the ‘No Go’ areas for example, so if we play up at Browndown, it would only be to a certain point or you know, I suppose we were just used to that actually. There was a lot of Gosport that’s been built on now with housing that previously was Ministry of Defence land. We just accepted it. And also, you’ve just come to my memory, that thinking about Emergency Drills at schools when we were little, you think of the kind of you know IRA threat back in the day, and if I remember rightly, due to the high level of security, I don’t think … I think there was a period of time when people couldn’t wear their uniforms out and about and cars were being checked and the school that I went to, there was a high volume of Armed Forces children in it so that would have been part, what we would have been very familiar with was the element of risk I think. Not in an extreme way at all but we were aware of it that perhaps other children wouldn’t have been in other schools maybe. You know just those Emergency Evacuation Procedures, and I’m sure there were tablets at the time because of Dolphin with the nuclear. If something went wrong with nuclears. I’m not sure, maybe it’s just childhood …
Simon: Ah ha, right.
Lesley: But I’m sure, I think there is some things so …
Simon: Is there anything that I haven’t spoken to you about that you’d like to talk about?
Lesley: No, I don’t think so.
Simon: Ok. Well thank you very much for your time.
Lesley: Thank you.
Simon: Thank you very much.
Interview ends
61 minutes 36 seconds
Transcribed February 2023
