Duration: 55 minutes 8 Seconds
Simon: I’m Simon Perry and I’m here in Dunchurch with Jim Perks and today is the 17th of February 2023 and we’re here to talk about the Submariners Stories Oral History Project. Jim, thanks very much for inviting us into your home today. Can you tell us first of all your full name and your date of birth?
Jim: James Le Seelleur Perks, Jersey French, ’66.
Simon: And where were you born?
Jim: So, I was born in Kingston-Upon-Thames in Surrey.
Simon: And the names of your mum and dad.
Jim: Ray and Ruby.
Simon: Ok. And what did Ray and Ruby do?
Jim: So before marriage, my mum was a BOAC Stewardess, which she was very proud of ‘cos she was on the Queen’s Flight form a couple of flights, and my dad was in the drinks trade all his life. When they met he was in a company called Vine Products and then after I was born he became himself a multi-manager Director of Bulmer’s Cider so we moved to Hereford, and then latterly he worked for Pernod Ricard and moved back to London again.
Simon: And what was growing up like?
Jim: Really good, I’m an only child. I don’t really remember much about early days in Kingston, but Hereford is where I first remember. I went to school there, started school in Hereford. Part way through that as I sort of grew up, my dad was moved to the States, working for Bulmer’s to set Bulmer’s up out there, so that was interesting. So, we had a flat in Manhattan and a house in Hereford, which was great for holidays. Didn’t see much of him and I went off to Boarding School pretty much because of that. My mum was a School Teacher after being a Stewardess, all of her life spoke fluent French being from Jersey, so was a French Teacher. I was off to Boarding School which I loved actually, especially as an only child it was like having a load of brothers and latterly sisters when they eventually let girls in, so I was at the Downs Prep School in Malden and a natural feeder for that was into Malvern College. I didn’t go there, I ended up in Wrekin College in Shrewsbury, which was great again, great fun, I mean really too much good fun actually. I ended up failing all my ‘O’ Levels apart from Maths, English, Art and Pottery. Pottery becomes important later on in the story, and after that disastrous summer of ‘O’ Level results, my dad said, “Right, that’s enough. Clearly you’re enjoying yourself too much, education is not for you, you’re definitely not a university candidate so I’m not paying anymore, you’re leaving” and I agreed and I said, “Yep, great.” Apprenticeship, something like that, didn’t have a clue, although I did enjoy listening to his Advertising Agency sort of stories, but of course you need a Law Degree nowadays to get into it, Advertising Agencies, in fact it was the same then. So, I left in the summer, I moved in with my mum. My mum and dad by then were long divorced, lived just down the road. My mum was still a School Teacher, I think I was 3 days from leaving school for the last time, having quite a time, and my mum said, “What are you doing?” I said, “Well, nothing, it’s school holidays.” She said, “No, you’re not in school anymore, go and get a job” and you didn’t mess with my mum, you just didn’t. A great disciplinarian, so off to the Job Centre I went thinking I wouldn’t get anything and came back with a job and because of my Maths and English, it was a job in the Civil Service as a Clerical Assistant, right at the bottom, for the Occupational Pensions Board. Yep, you can imagine, it was fiercely boring. I can remember turning up in a 3-piece suit for my first day. To my horror, everybody and the boss’s boss’s, boss’s boss were in jeans, T shirts and flipflops, so I didn’t make that mistake again. I lasted about 5 months there. I wouldn’t say I was deeply unhappy, but it was an awful … I hated it. Met some good friends, had some good fun and it was a family friend actually that had been a family friend of ours for many, many years, it was like an uncle to me actually, and he was a ‘Desert Rat’ and he said, “Have you ever thought about the military? I think you’d really enjoy it.” Bear in mind we are talking early to mid ‘80s and I hadn’t, I absolutely hadn’t at all, ever, thought about a military career for me. So, I started thinking about it. Of course, Army, umm, Northern Ireland, bit dangerous for my liking. RAF, yeah that sounds interesting if you can fly, so the Navy, and I started looking a little bit more in depth for the Navy and saw a huge amount of opportunities there. We happened to be walking past the Recruiting Office in Guildford, and there was a photograph of Navy Divers and ‘oh, that looks exciting, in crystal blue water’ which of course you never dive in crystal blue water, so went in. Much to my mum’s surprise, and she was clever with me. She didn’t ever force me or over egg it. She let me make my own calls which was the right thing to do. I had a great chat with I guess he must have been a Chief Petty Officer about what the importunities were, what my educational qualifications were, school background, all that sort of stuff, took a dicky test, came out, met my mum. She asked me how it went, I said, “It was interesting, filled some forms out registering my interest” and though nothing more of it. About 3 weeks later, I got a letter through the post at my mum’s house from the Navy. I didn’t know what it was, I thought maybe there’s a bit more information. It wasn’t, the test I’d taken, it was a Entrance Test and they said, “Congratulations, you’re in. You join HMS Raleigh on the 21st of May 1984 as a Writer” to which I … you know there wasn’t Google so I had to phone them up and say, “I’m sorry, what’s a Writer? I want to be a Diver.” And they said, “No, you can’t …” back then you to … the other side was Entry Diving. You had to go in as a Warfare guy and after a few years you could choose to be, try and be selected for Diving, so they explained what a Writer was. They said, “A Write is a Clerk effectively.” I said, I don’t like being a Clerk, I’ve just done that.” They said, “Don’t worry, let’s get you in, let’s get feet through the door. If it really isn’t something that you want to do, then there are opportunities, but with your Maths and English, you can’t be an Officer because you don’t have enough ‘O’ Levels, the promotion rate within that Branch is good, you can get promoted through the ranks quickly.” So, I said, “Ok” and spoke to you know this guy again, this ‘Desert Rat’ and asked his opinion and he said, “Great, great, what have you got to lose? You hate the job you’re in, you haven’t signed you’re life away, you can walk out the door pretty quickly during basic training, just go and try it out.” He said, “I think you will be surprised.” Got the train, a bit nervous, went down to Plymouth, picked up by coach I think, into the main gates at HMS Raleigh and then I pretty much immediately realised what this guy had been telling me. It’s like Boarding School. You do what you’re told, you sleep when you’re told, you eat when you’re told. It is the same as being at Boarding School. Put in quite a big class. The classes were about 30 I suppose with a lot of other Writers, Stores Assistants and some Warfare guys and loved it. Lots of sport, lots of fun, like-minded people, just all sorts of backgrounds. My background was probably a little bit different to most that came through the door, but it was fine. I was very well accepted and got on well and quite quickly became a Deputy and then a Class Leader of a class. Loved it, just did what I was told. There was a couple of hiccups in that ‘cos I’m 17 at this stage. At one point we go to Pier Cellars which is like an Outward-Bound place for the weekend, and broke my arm on an Assault Course, so that was me, off to Hospital, get a pot on, back last, you know just held in training for I think it was 6 weeks, 8 weeks something like that, which was fine, working for the guys in the Division I was in, waiting for the cast to come off and restart, just rejoin another Course.
Simon: That’s interesting. So, you lost contact with the people …
Jim: With that lot, yeah. They moved on, they passed out of the first phase and moved on but of course I stayed in the same Division so I saw all the new entries coming in, so the Staff started using me to say, “Well you can teach them how to bull shoes and iron a shirt, so it was really good. They looked after me really, really well and kept me busy, kept me engaged, and kept me interested and just really looked after me. So, I had the cast off on a Friday, Saturday I joined the next Class which I think was Drake 3I. I think I was in Drake 21 and then Drake 31 and Pier Cellars was on the cards. Brilliant, back to Pier Cellars, broke my leg (laughs).
Simon: My goodness!
10 minutes 19 seconds
Jim: You can’t make it up.
Simon: That’s literally the day afterwards.
Jim: The Bosses kind of saw me and, ”Really, you literally were less than 24 hours in plaster” so again back classed, back to the same Division, so I was a long time getting through Phase 1 training. By that time, when I joined my next Course, I was the Class Leader of that and went through. It was great fun, really, really good. So, it was a long time and then onto Phase 2 which was then back still at Raleigh, for my Writer’s training, the Clerk’s training which was interesting. There were no computers so you know we used to do people’s pay manually, so it was actually pretty interesting and it was something new to learn. So, it was great. I did that, passed out, mum and dad came down, very proud of everything with the ‘Desert Rat’ who looked at me and said, “I told you so” and he was right, and then off to Phase 3 training which for Writers is shore based. Big Task Book to tick off but actually doing the job and I went to HMS Dryad, which was the Warfare Training School up on Portsdown Hill, unfortunately now shut down. And it was there again I met lots of great friends and people. My Divisional Officer and my Boss within that organisation was a Sub-Lieutenant SD Officer, so he’d come through the Ranks.
Simon: What dies SD stand for?
Jim: Special Duties, so an SD, now they’re called Senior Upper Yardmen, so an SD Officer would be someone who has made the rank of at least Petty Officer and then becomes an Officer but has to stay in that specialisation, so he was a Writer and became a Supply Officer, and said, “Are you interested in becoming an Officer?” I said, “Yeah, I am actually.” He said, “Well, you need to get some ‘O’ Levels, you need to get engaged with ‘stuff’ and prove to me that you can do it and it’s called ‘raising your papers’ which means I think it was a 6 monthly additional report on suitability for Officer Training.
Simon: What was the stuff then you had to get involved with?
Jim: Oh he just wanted me to develop my leadership skills and get involved in team sports and he unfortunately was the boss of the Dryad Field Gun Crew so I got roped into break the Field Gun which was utterly knackering, but again good fun, good people and a new thing, which still fascinates me to this day. So, that’s what started that journey and in fact the Captain of Dryad was then Captain Jock Slater, who became the 1st Sea Lord so I was quite proud that he signed my papers, and then off I went to sea. So, I’d finished that phase of my training, you take your papers with you, went to join my first ship which was HMS Hermione based in Portsmouth so it was easy for me and again my Divisional Officer again there was another SD Officer and he said, “Oh you’re an upper yardie” and each ship, submarine has a group of people that are trying to either get themselves educated qualified or actually get through to the Admiralty Interview Board, so this sort of classes teaching you about leadership and management and all that sort of stuff, so I joined in with that and they said, “You need to get an ‘O’ Level, you need 1 more ‘O’ Level and Pottery counts, and it’s actually designed so it’s not Arts, so you’ve got 4 and you need 1 more.” So, a load of us did, I think it was called General Studies which was basically essay writing I think as far as I can remember. We deployed to the Gulf so this is the Iran-Iraq War …
Simon: This is Surface Fleet.
Jim: Surface Fleet in a Leander Class Frigate, HMS Hermione. If I went through my mind it was Jupiter at one stage. My interest really peaked because by then I became a Leading Hand so I’d been promoted. It could be said I was enjoying myself a little too much at that stage again. Bit like school, ooh this is fun, lots of great people, I’d properly discovered beer by then and we had so much fun and on a surface ship lots of runs ashore, foreign, you know, it kind of felt like I really was living the dream, seeing the world, and the XO, the 2nd in Command of that ship was a Harrier Pilot. I’ll remember his name in a minute. Absolutely stunning guy and in the role as a Writer, it was all paper, you know there wasn’t computers, so the filing system was paper and the pack system … one of my jobs was to take the Classified Packs round to the Officers and make sure they signed for them and get them back and …
Simon: What’s the pack, sorry?
Jim: A filing system. Scott Lidbetter was his name, who ended up as Flag Officer Navy Aviation actually, and he said, “You want to be an Officer?” I said, “Yeah, I do” he said, “You know you can be a Pilot don’t you?” “What with 5 ‘O’ Levels and one of the Pottery?” “Yeah, 5 ‘O’ Levels.” “Oh” that piqued my interest so I pulled my finger out a bit and got those qualifications I needed and started to work towards the Admiralty Interview Board. So, we came back from the Gulf, I was Leading hand, I did my Interview Board. I was then at HMS Mercury, another Base that’s since shut down which was the School of Communications, the other side of Portsdown Hill, fabulous place, and passed the Admiralty Interview Board which back then was a 3-day interview with leadership tasks, a bit of essay writing, a few tests. In fact, one of the tests was cultural knowledge. I think 20 questions about which composer wrote this opera or this whatever it was and this, that and the other. I scored zero out of 20 which was wasn’t particularly good, ‘cos when they ask you what paper do you read, you’re told don’t say the Sun, say the Telegraph and then of course they say, “Who’s the Editor?” and you get caught. And those interviews with school teachers and … it’s pretty thorough, but again pretty good. I met some … actually interestingly some people I already knew that had come through the Ranks during that period. Passed that and went back to Mercury, to wait for a letter and I got my letter through saying you’re joining Dartmouth as a Pilot in the following April, ‘88. Got there (laughs). The trepidation wasn’t the same, it was different ‘cos I’d already done all this once. Got on the train down to the south west. I knew what to expect. It was very obvious who the other Officer Cadets were because we were all wearing the same … we were basically already in uniform, you know, chinos and a blazer and tie. Of course, I by then was 21 and a lot of these guys were a lot younger. Yes they were probably half were graduates but a lot weren’t, probably most weren’t graduates. It’s flipped on its head now. So, some quite young guys. On to the programme at Dartmouth which as you know is a stunning place to visit, and I was going to be living in it. On the Parade Ground, reading names out and at the end of it there was two of us left standing in the middle of the Parade Ground, not having had our names read out, so what was going through my mind was, ‘Oh, I’ve just given away all my other rig, I’ve clearly made a mistake, I shouldn’t be here, I’m going to be back on the ship, you know, terrifying really. Anyway, it turned out they’d taken on too many Pilots that term and made a mistake so right, just join that course, that class, so I did and I was in Blake Division again. Some friendships I made from day 1 are enduring today from that cohort. Just fabulous people.
Simon: There’s a clear theme here.
Jim: Oh it’s all about people, and that’s why I’ve loved my you know, for nearly 39 years, I mean it’s really exciting, really interesting, taxing stuff. You know you can take it to service and Queen and Country and all that sort of stuff but it’s about people, it’s all about the people and the camaraderie that exists across the Armed Forces, certainly in the Navy but it’s kind of on steroids in the Submarine Service which I’m sure we’ll get to, the reasons why.
Simon: Can I just move your mic if I can, ‘cos I’m a bit concerned about … there we go, that might be better. Sorry, to interrupt.
Jim: So, joined a Course. Honestly my whole Service Career’s has been about being in the right place at the right time funnily enough, so again my Divisional Officer and his Mate in Blake Division were both Submariners. One of them had come through the Ranks, one of them hadn’t. Neither of them were Warfare Officers, they were both Weapons Engineers I think, or one was an ME and one was a W. Added to the fact that a number of the other ‘upper-yardies’ so an ‘upper-yardy’ guy that’s come through the Ranks, there’s quite a big entry of ‘upper-yardies’ that year, especially in our Division, and the ‘upper-yardies’ in my entry, there were a number of Submariners in there and two of them were in my Division, who became, again to this day, great friends and to listen to their stories and in fact there was three actually, might even have been more. There were definitely three, and I shared a cabin with one of them who was a Nuclear Engineer, so his career was in to Engineering and the other two were going into Warfare, and hearing their stories, it actually turned quite a lot of us actually. There was a big … you know when the question came, “Are there any volunteers for the Submarine Service” there was no shortage of hands that went up, because our Divisional Officer was you know, helping us out and these three guys who were already wearing dolphins were there and we were just excited about it. Their stories were amazing, and then when the submarine came in, we had conventional submarines, so diesel-electric submarines, they quite regularly used to come into Dartmouth and one of these three would know somebody onboard and get us down and we’d be poured off you know some hours later. Just had great fun, so that was it for me. I said, “Right, I don’t want to be a Pilot anymore, I want to go in the Submarine Service.”
21 minutes 50 seconds
Simon: So, it’s partially the people that were there, the fact that the guy who was senior to you was Submarines, and also the experience of actually being on the submarine.
Jim: Yeah, it was just alongside, and having a few beers with real Submariners, with actual Submariners.
Simon: The camaraderie, straight away.
Jim: You could see it, I understood it and of course there is always, that’s one of the reasons you do this, is the secrecy side of it. You know you have to be in it to understand it from an operational perspective certainly, and even then I didn’t know what they did. I just thought that the machines were just amazing. I mean even to this day, I down to the submarine and I’m in awe of the size of the bomber and the complexity of the Astute Class and the excitement of what’s coming next. And then of course there’s as I say, the Upper Yard is a little bit older than everyone else and right from the beginning they’re saying well the Submarine Service, if you’re any good, you can move through the pipe really quite quickly, which really, that’s great. I was basically 4 years behind the guys that had come straight from school. I was 21, they were 17, so yeah, all in. Again, my academic prowess came to the fore. I was supposed to do 3 terms at Dartmouth a year as a Supplementary, so a short-term commission, can’t remember how many years it was you used to sign up for, 7 or 8, because of my background I didn’t have ‘A’ Levels or a degree so that was the most I could get. It was supposed to be 3 terms. Again, I was enjoying myself probably a bit too much to be fair, and failed all my exams again (laughs), hauled in front of the Captain of Dartmouth and it was actually the two Submariners Divisional Officers who saved my bacon. I thought that’s it, I’m done, I’m going to get kicked out, and they said, “No, we see something in him, he just needs to pull his finger out and grow up a bit and we’ll get him through.” I said, “Ok, fair enough” and embarrassingly there was another guy that didn’t, so I got back-classed again, my now 3rd time in my Naval career, for different reasons, and there are some great Tutors in [inaudible] so I was able to sort of pick and choose the ones I thought could help me the most and brilliant. I came top of most of my exams the next time around. I’d seen them all once but … so it was great and I got through that. The unfortunate thing of course I didn’t Pass Out with my mates. I Passed Out with another group of mates, but not the ones I’d joined up with. So, that was that. A lot of the guys went then to … so the Engineers went off to Manadon, again shut down, but where they did their Engineering Degrees based in Plymouth. I was appointed to HMS Tireless which was an SSN, based in Plymouth, so those friendships remained.
Simon: So, you didn’t do the Engineering side, you …
Jim: No, I’m a Warfare Officer. So, I’ve missed a bit. So, I left Dartmouth, then you go on an Officer of the Watch Course which is a Course that every Warfare Officer has to do. It reaches you how to be an Officer of the Watch of a surface ship pretty much. Little bit of Warfare but not very much. It’s about understanding the rules of the road and that’s back at Dryad, so it was interesting going back not so many years later from fairly ropey Junior Rates accommodation to Southwick House, which was stunning, with the ‘D’ Day maps in the Wardroom Bar, incredible. So, I met up with a cohort that I joined up with again, I went through the Officer of the Watch Course, again great friendships made, and quite a few Submariners on that course and then we all went off to Dolphin to start our submarine journey, and that’s when the friendship dial got turned up even more because now you’re in with other Submariners and you can really feel the camaraderie and of course Dolphin, what a place. I mean what a place and of course back in the day there was a whole load of ‘O’ boats parked right outside the Ward Room.
26 minutes 13 seconds
Simon: I’ve seen those photos, they’re incredible.
Jim: Yeah, stunning, and so the crews were all wandering around and the Ward Room Officers would be in the back Bar in the Mess and spinning dits, telling stories, laughter. It’s one thing I really do remember, you know walking into the Bar just before dinner and the noise of laughter and fun and camaraderie, in little groups of … the boats would tend to stay with themselves and absolutely brilliant. And of course, you start leaning about submarine life then, as a baby. Did our Warfare Course again, a lot of the same people that I was in Dartmouth with, and then we went off to our first submarine, so I got Tireless. There’s the Part 3. Part 3 … so you join as a young Sub-Lieutenant. The boat had just come back from having been under the ice, they were pretty buoyant, a great bunch again, friendships made there that endure to this day, and start my training, proper training. I guess Dolphin Basic Warfare Course is the driving test at that stage to become a Submariner. You’re still not wearing dolphins. Then you go to sea and actually understand how all those parts come together, before you eventually qualify to wear the dolphins.
Simon: How was your Part 3?
Jim: Intense. That’s probably, and I include Perisher in this, the most difficult phase of my entire career for me. Learning I think it’s 34 different systems, you’re supposed to know what each valve did, how they all interacted together, you had to go back aft and understand the Reactor Plant and the engines and how we make air, how we make water. I don’t have that background; I don’t have a scientific background at all. It was fascinating but I found it difficult to just understand and back then you were kind of left on your own. You were given a book and said, “Off you go Perks, sort your life out.” You know there were some people that simply didn’t talk to you. If you weren’t wearing dolphins, you weren’t wort talking to, in the Ward Room. I mean one of the Engineers didn’t say a bloody word to me, and nowadays you just don’t get away with that, and it was wrong. Don’t get me wrong, but back then it somehow felt right. And you weren’t allowed to watch a movie in the evening. Ooh no, unless you were actually putting the reel-to-reel movie on, which in itself is an engineering challenge, rolling reel changes and all the Submariners will be giggling and film all the way down the corridor.
Simon: I guess in some ways it’s an incentive for you, people sort of shutting you out, it’s an incentive for you to join, to complete and then join.
Jim: You could think of it that way (laughs). You could, and that’s how it was solved at that time. Things have moved on now; things have moved on. Nowadays we want to try and get the young recruits in as part of the club much, much earlier. That’s why we give them the black dolphins, the training dolphins to say look you are part of this club, you’re not qualified but that signifies that that’s your chosen journey and we’ll start looking after you. It didn’t go down particularly well, particularly with the retired community but without question it was the right thing to do. So, Part 3, I found difficult. I did end up putting quite a few movies on and sneaking a Watch but you’re just not … you’re part of a crew but you’re not, you’re a Trainee, very much and as I say you’re left to get on, ask questions and … you ask a Submariner a question about the system, they will not stop talking, and as you can tell, I haven’t stopped talking for the last however long we’ve been going. We love talking about what it is that we do, but again it was the volume really of information. So, that’s the first bit and then you have to get each system ticked off and then you do a walk round for’ard and a walk round aft, the after one with a Senior Engineer, the for’ard one with the 2nd in Command which can be about anything. Really concentrating on the layout of the boat, the systems, and then as an Officer, there’s an additional very big hurdle and that’s the Officer of the Day part of it. The Captain needs to be able to trust that when there’s no one else onboard, you are his representative, so they need to know that you know what to do if there’s a fire or problem with the reactor or a weapon, or a disciplinary case or a VIP suddenly appears. So, that’s another level of learning that you have to go and do.
30 minutes 51 seconds
Simon: So that’s an Officer Part 3 is it?
Jim: Yeah, the Officer of the Day part of it. It’s pretty intense and they come and watch you do a harbour fire exercise and I get it. You kind of question it at the beginning and then as you move through the Ranks, especially when you become an XO and definitely when you get a Captain, and you’re the person that has finally qualified these guys, you need to be comfortable, ‘cos you’ve signed them off and if there’s a problem on the boat and he doesn’t at least raise the alarm and do the Emergency Operating Procedures right, you’re kind of in the shit. So, I got that. Again, funnily enough I think I failed my first Part 3. I did fail my first Part 3 Board with the Captain and his Heads of Department; it was pretty intense back then. There was 5, 6, 7 hour long Oral Boards. Yeah, quite intense, quite intense. They try and relax you but you know you’re under the cosh.
Simon: It’s just you and them for 5 hours.
Jim: Yeah, and the walk rounds can be … I think my walk round was 5 or 6 hours, crawling all over the spaces you know. The MEO putting his hand on various valves so I couldn’t see what it was, and then enable it and he’d say, “Well what that, what have I got my hand on?” It’s that intense. You never forget it and a submarine is a submarine at the end of the day, and even if you move Classes, you get it very, very quickly. You understand where the valve should be, so you go and look for it and you find it. So yeah, passed … I can remember it’s one of those sort of key parts along with passing Perisher, is you definitely remember the day you were awarded your dolphins in a ridiculously large glass of rum. In one, catch in your teeth, try not to be sick in front of the rest of the Ward Room. I’ve still got those dolphins today. I was advised at the time, keep those, you know, those are your first set. I did wear them immediately but then when I moved I took them off and put a new set on, and still got them. So, then you’re properly part of the club, and quite importantly your submarine pay starts I think at stage, which is nice.
Simon: Everyone has mentioned that.
Jim: Yeah, and that’s not the reason most of us join.
Simon: Just a nice bonus.
Jim: Yeah. And it’s right actually when you think of the … you know early doors, I wasn’t married and had girlfriends. I did what they wanted me to do and so being away at sea, fine I’ll be away at sea, but the separation once you settle down is … especially when you have kids, phew, wow, that’s hard. That is hard work. I think I’ve worked out I’ve spent over 5 years underwater, so yeah, you’re part of the club then properly. I’m still a Sub-Lieutenant. I’m nicknamed the ‘tubby subby’ ‘cos I’m maybe my lager drinking had got above me. Again, that’s stuck with that crew again, the people I met on that crew, still friends today. We have a thing called ‘The Sitting and Serving’ which are 6 monthly get-togethers of serving … it started in the City of London but it’s a way that we can all get back together, and the Tireless crew a few years ago at Lords all got together. There was 10 of us, got a photograph altogether from that time. Amazing! So, that was that, passed my Part 3 so it was time to go on another Course. My Captain at the time .. I’ve been very lucky with Captains, very, very lucky. They’ve all taught me something, they’ve all been brilliant and all been very supportive of what I wanted to do next, with one exception. I wanted to go to a conventional submarine next, and my Captain (laughs) at the time had driven a conventional submarine, Onyx, and blankly said, “No, I’m not recommending you for a diesel boat, because you’ll have too much fun and you’ll end up in the shit. No, it’s not for you” and of course that was exactly the reason I wanted to go, is to have that bit of fun. We could see the demise of the ‘O’ boats, were on the way out, the Upholder Class was coming in, we only ordered 4 of them. You could kind of see the writing on the wall, so I wanted to have that experience and even to this day, you hear the guys that had the diesel boats, they have a I think a more intense experience, especially on the ‘O’ boats. It’s like walking onboard Alliance in the Museum. It’s proper world world stuff.
35 minutes 45 seconds
Simon: Because of the intensity of the space.
Jim: I think so. The intensity of the space, where you sleep. I mean blimey, there are bunks everywhere. Yeah I just wanted to experience that really and because a conventional submarine you can go more places, you get more runs ashore. You know the Submarine Service had always been a little bit more relaxed I think than the rest of the Navy, for good or bad, for good in my book. ‘O’ boats very relaxed. I mean one of the team, there’s still ‘yes sir, no sir’ when it was required but ashore you’re all buddies in boats, and I took that forward actually that bit of it. Anyway, I got a blank no, which was a shame, went on to Intermediate Warfare Course which is where you’re taught really to navigate. Again, funnily enough, very similar people on that course, we were all going through at a very similar drum beat. Intermediate Warfare Course, back to Dolphin, again what a fabulous place but this time wearing dolphins. You know you’re part of the club properly and getting properly involved in the Mess and dinners and everything you’re very proud to be wearing your dolphins and looking at all the youngsters at the Basic Warfare Course without their dolphins and telling them your stories. You’ve only been in a year or two and probably only been a qualified Submariner for 6 months, but you think you’re the King of the world, and as far as we all were concerned, we were. Again, camaraderie intensifies actually I think at that stage. So, then we’re on to Intermediate Warfare Course. I guess it’s a 6-month course, lots of navigation training. At the time everyone was failing that bit. Our course was ok actually, something I passed first time amazingly and then off to another submarine. I was sent to Spartan next, as the Communications Officer, which was fairly normal. You start as the SCO, the Comms Officer and then after a period of time when the Navigator left, you’d move up the bed and become the Navigator.
Simon: What does the Communication Officer do then? That’s going in and out is it?
Jim: That’s a good question. Not really. He’s the custodian of the cryptographic material.
Simon: That means encrypted messages.
Jim: The crypto material for the guys in the Comms Shack, but when it came to actual Comms, might be any Comms, you know I was the Divisional Officer of the Comms Department, what I knew about Comms I could have written on the back of a fag packet. Technical, in technical terms, so and we had lots of other little jobs to do. You’re still very much learning. In fact, you are all the way through the Submarine Service, and the way that the career structure for Warfare Officers certainly is set out to this day, means that you go to sea, you learn, you do a Course, you go back to sea, you enhance that, you continue to learn, make sure you can do that bit of it, and then start training for the next Course. And as I say, the COs I had and the XOs and COs that I had were all brilliant at understanding that ‘cos they’d all done it themselves, but also very quickly adding more responsibility that didn’t come with the job you were currently in but it would prepare you for the next Course, so as the Communicator I was doing some navigation, for example, to prepare me …
Simon: ‘Cos they knew that …
Jim: … ‘cos they knew that was the … so they threw you in. You know, ‘Right, you have a go, you take the boat in to Port, to Harbour this time.’
Simon: That’s what a Navigator does.
Jim: Yeah, so on Spartan, I think it was probably a year before I became the Navigator. Again, brilliant Captain, I mean really one of the people that stands out. Someone I looked at … thinking towards Perisher then ‘cos you get to that stage you think, ‘Umm, maybe I could pass Perisher. Maybe Perisher is something I … ‘ you know it’s always the pipe dream, it’s always the headmark for a Warfare Officer, it’s all about Perisher. If it isn’t, there’s not much point in being a Warfare Officer frankly. You know if you don’t want to command your own submarine, as a Warfare Officer, then you’re in the wrong job. And at that stage it’s something, ‘umm, maybe I could …’ and start looking at the Seniors and the people that pass Perisher and I liked the way he leads and I like the way he looks after people. As I say, I was really, really lucky.
40 minutes 27 seconds
Simon: That is interesting, yeah. You have various templates put in front of you as to how you could do it.
Jim: Absolutely. Because as I said at the beginning, it’s all about people and people react differently and I think the important thing to stress and it may have come up with you know other people, I don’t know if Chris said a similar thing, in those days, so this is now early ‘90s, there were still a lot of ‘shouty’ people around. You know, some overly boisterous command styles, I mean really aggressive, particularly under pressure on operations. I didn’t see any of that. The COs I had; they just didn’t react to pressure like that. I was properly lucky. Pretty much all of my other friends were saying, “Oh blimey, this was spicy” and some people, there’s a kind of a switch that goes you know absolutely salt of the earth gentleman one minute and then ooh, wow, you know they don’t stop screaming at you. I guess it’s their coping mechanism for pressure, so I was really lucky, really lucky. The two COs I had when I was Navigator, one was much quieter than the other, but both allowed me to explore the next role, so once I was Navigator, we deployed actually for I think probably 6 months, and I was given my own Watch. So, the next job up is Watch Leader and the CO said, “Right, you can have your own Watch, I’m comfortable that you can have charge of the boat, dived, so start learning and jump in with both feet.” Brilliant! I knew that’s what I wanted to do and I love Navigating, I really love being a Watch Leader. You know, having that level of responsibility, the Captain’s not there, you’re the Captain, you’re driving the submarine around. Yes he’ll ask for permission to return the boat to PV or do whatever but you’re doing it, and you have to react to emergencies, you have to react to you know, operational situations before the Captain gets into the Control Room and make sure the records are right, make sure you’re in the right place and your navigation … brilliant! I mean brilliant! So yeah, that was that and Navigation and then on to Advanced Warfare Course, now called the PWOSM Course, the Principal Warfare Officer Submarines to align us with the Surface Fleet. Not sure it does quite do that but anyway, Advanced Warfare Course, another 6-month Course and all about warfare, tactics, I mean really interesting stuff, and you really are thinking about Perisher then, you’re really thinking right, I’ve got to nail this and get through the system. They’re quite small course sizes. Ours was very small, which means you get a lot of time as the Watch Leader in the trainers for example.
Simon: The trainers being the simulators.
Jim: The simulators, yeah lots of time actually doing that and of course you’re being taught all the time, coached and assessed. Let’s not forget, you’re always being assessed. You might not think you are; they might not say you are but you are, of course you are.
Simon: The simulators are how realistic? Have they got people working in there and …?
Jim: Yeah, and the layout is similar, you’ve got the action information organisation, the Plots on one side, and you’re got Fire Control at the end of it, you’ve got Sound Room, the Sonar guys. In another room, you understand how they interact, and back then you were doing a lot of Maths, a lot of manual stuff in your head. Manual plots were still a thing, it’s all computer screens now. I’m not saying the Maths has gone. To a lot of people very important to understand exactly how the algorithms are working, so from a learning perspective with regards to how you manage your team, and collate information, it’s really good but nothing is like being at sea, learning. Again, Advanced Warfare Course gets you a tick. Being at sea as a Watch Leader, you know you’ve got a few months you need to learn properly what it feels like, the movement of the boat, the fact that you’ve got people Watch changing. Every 6 hours you’ve got a whole new people coming in, coming out. There’s noise, there’s that, you’ve got to control that. And you’ve got other stuff which isn’t in the simulators. You know you’ve got a Reactor behind you; you’ve got the Engineering Team behind you, you’ve got Propulsion to worry about. But, a great Course, great people again, Advanced Warfare Course, and we finished Advanced Warfare Course, better get the date right, my missus will kill me, on it must have been something like the 6th or the 7th of July … blimey I can’t even remember the day I got married, ’95, and I was supposed to go to be the Navigating Officer of HMS Vanguard, so changing Class. So, I’d been on Trafalgar Class which of course are SSN hunter killers to a bomber. I did not want a bomber. I just didn’t, I enjoyed runs ashore, I enjoyed the operations, I was naive, I didn’t understand bombers. I do now.
46 minutes 18 seconds
Simon: You didn’t understand the role they played.
Jim: I didn’t understand it. There’s healthy rivalry between the two communities and I think as a young Warfare Officer most would want to be on an SSN. I think you learn your trade more quickly because you’re in closer confines to stuff whereas in a bomber you’re trying to stay away from stuff, so I think from a learning perspective, the SSN is the way to go, or the ‘O’ boat even better because you get even more responsibility. So, I was disappointed but fine, you know, it’s the Navy, I’ll do what I’m told and it was also a time where we were going through a round of redundancies and my Course Officer was pregnant for Perisher, we always call it. You know he thought and we all thought he was going to one of the next Perisher, definitely. He was teaching an Advanced Warfare Course so he must have been good. He got called to sit at the day, probably the day we finished the Course, he was called to the Captain of Dolphin, and we all thought, ‘aah, brilliant’ you know. He came back in tears. “What’s the matter?” He said, “I’ve just been sacked, I’ve just been made redundant.” “Oh my God.” Unbelievable, I mean unbelievable. What a way to do it, you know, wow! From I think I’m going to Perisher to I don’t have a job anymore. With a redundancy package. In fact most of the guys that were unfortunate enough to be in that cohort, a lot of them went to Australia pretty quickly.
Simon: To the Service there.
Jim: To the Australian Submarine Service. A lot of them had ‘O’ boat experience and the Australians were running ‘O’ boats so it was quite an easy transition. I was getting married the next day at Dolphin, the Reception was at Dolphin. Funny old thing, most of the people there were … lots of people from Dartmouth, all dolphin wearers I think, there was a couple of Pilots there, and I think it was the night before my wedding I get a phone call from my previous CO at Spartan, saying, “Do you want to come back?” The redundancies had meant that I’d got a slot to fill for a Watch Leader. “Oh yes Sir, definitely. Thank you, I’d love that” and he said, “Yeah, there is a problem. We’re deploying for 7 months in somewhen like 10 days’ time.” I thought, “Oh shit, so that’s my honeymoon out the window” and he went, “Yep. You better go and tell Lulu” so ok. So, we did, you know she said, “You’ve got to do that” so that’s what we did. We put the honeymoon on hold, had a great honeymoon in London, we didn’t go abroad, and I deployed, and that was it, bang, away for 6 months.
Simon: I guess for her that’s the sort of baptism of fire of what the life’s going to be like.
Jim: Oh God it was particularly because we got married, went away for a honeymoon in London and then we thought well we’ve got to get a Married Quarter, we were up in Faslane. She’d never been to Faslane. We arrived in our little car to Smuggler’s Way. Someone listening will understand what I’m talking about, to the maisonettes in Smuggler’s Way, since been knocked down. Built in the ‘60s and they got lots of awards actually but bloody ugly things, but I think they got the awards because every maisonette had a great view of the water and we did. We were put in a block, we had pets but no kids, and funny enough there was a block that had pets but no kids and there was three other couples in there. Again, I’m still friends with two of those couples, I mean good friends, amazing, but it was raining. I mean it was typical Faslane rain. It was nasty for the whole time before I left and Lulu was pretty upset, she was in tears.
50 minutes 21 seconds
Simon: Right, what have I done.
Jim: Away from home for the first time, in a strange place, didn’t know anybody. Again, very quickly a lot of the other families were in exactly the same boat. The wives had been through exactly the same problems, so rallied round and looked after her and you know we still knew … ‘cos I’d done two jobs in the same boat previously, we knew the crew and we knew their wives, and a lot of them lived in Smuggler’s so it was little easier than it could have been I guess. And of course, I was back on the same boat so those friendships were there and off we went. She flew out to Dubai, we had a run ashore in Dubai, she flew out to Dubai so yeah, that was that. Again, great CO.
Simon: This was an SSN again was it?
Jim: This is back to Spartan, third job in a row. Out on Ops again, deployed in east of Suez again, great Ops, great fun, great runs ashore, I knew the people, you know I didn’t have to do another … we call it BSQs, a Part 3 top up ‘cos I was back on the same boat so I knew the Captain, I was already qualified Officer of the Day and all that sort of stuff, so easy, bang, done, and of course before I went on the Advanced Warfare Course I’d been one of the Watch Leaders because he’d trained me, so I was straight in and absolutely loved it. Absolutely loved it and some proper friendships. A really, really good boat that was, great, great fun, really good fun. So, that was that. I think by that stage I’d got a career transfer to the General List which meant that my career could go on and I wouldn’t have to leave after 7 or 12 years, whatever, thankfully ‘cos I was desperate to stay, and then you’re talking about Perisher. Then you’re thinking, ‘right, what next? Perisher is the next Course. How do I get there?’ And then you’re back in to Reports again, you’re having an extra 6 monthly Report raised on you for your suitability for the Course and it’s not just about suitability, but you’ve got to be ready for it. You know there’s no point in going on that Course which is a pass-fail career making or finishing Course if you’re not going to pass it. So, it’s not a rite of passage at all, that’s why the Perisher Report is there. If the COs various don’t think you’ve got what it takes, then you don’t go on the Course. It’s an expensive Course, so that was it. I was getting recommended, I got recommends quickly, I’d only been a Watch Leader for a year and got the recommend I needed and we’d done lots of Ops though by then. I mean lots of Ops, lots and lots and lots of stuff. We were busy, so I got a recommendation. Bloody hell that was quick. So, then kind of had time to do something else and the CO said, “Right, you’ve got time for a Shore Job, Pierre, you don’t want to go on Perisher yet,” I said, “I don’t want to go on Perisher having not been at sea, that’s the next worry.” He said, “Well, how about being the Advanced Warfare Course Instructor?” “Oh, brilliant, ok, fabulous” so back to Dolphin I went as the Advanced Warfare Course Instructor thinking maybe I’ll do 2 years there and then go Perisher. There is no better training for Perisher than being the guy that’s teaching the Advanced Warfare Course particularly when it comes to Periscope drills, eyes only Maths because you’re teaching it then. Not to the degree of Perisher but you know what you’re talking about, you know the Maths. So, I did that and loved it again. We moved house, so we moved back to Portsmouth, or Petersfield, our Married Quarter was, and taught the Advanced Warfare Course, again meeting up with old mates, old Submariners, back at Dolphin, still going strong at that stage. Really good Mess life, ‘O’ boats I think had probably all gone by then so there were no boats there but the Base was still very operational, and I was waiting for a Perisher Course. Then another opportunity came. Again, the Boss of the School said, “You’ve been selected for Small Ship Command” which I didn’t really understand what he meant. He said, “You’re off to drive a University ship, an URNU.” “Ok, brilliant, fabulous.” I didn’t really know what that was but you get a P2000 Patrol boat to Captain, as a Lieutenant and in charge of a group of 51 University students who join the Unit as Reservists and for them it’s an opportunity to learn a bit more about the Navy. We do quite a lot of Leadership Training with them. It’s not a recruiting tool, it wasn’t then anyway. It’s just, you know, trying to educate leaders of the future and I was put in to the Yorkshire University’s Royal Naval Unit based out of Hull, which was unbelievably good for me. Hull, no one came to visit, the Senior Officers were few and far between, we were very much left alone to our own devices. The ship was based in the middle of Hull Marina, in the centre of Town, a lovely unit in an old house where we did our Drill Nights and looked after the students. Fabulous. I thought it was going to be irrelevant but actually it wasn’t because command is command at the end of the day. Yeah, it’s a tiny ship with a crew of 5, but you’re still the Boss and if something is going to go wrong, it’s your fault, so actually that did teach me something. I didn’t think it would but it definitely did and I didn’t realise that until after Perisher.
56 minutes 46 seconds
Simon: Right.
Jim: Frankly. Chris Groves was driving at the same time. I can remember going into Poole Harbour and he was alongside (laughs) so I parked alongside him and you won’t be surprised to know we went for a couple of beers. So, that was that and I was then talking to the Appointer saying, “right, I need to get back to sea on a boat before I do Perisher ‘cos if I do a year here, I won’t have been at sea on a submarine for 2 years. Ok, I’ve been the Advanced Warfare Course Instructor but I really want to go back” and they said, “No, you don’t need that” so I got selected for Perisher, 6 of us. There’s an old adage, that when you get on Course, you look for the weak link, and if you can’t find it, it’s probably you (laughs) and the cohort I was with, you know we were good. ‘Bloody hell, this is a good Course’ and we all had that joke. Christ, which one of us is it? ‘Cos we couldn’t obviously see it, there wasn’t an obvious candidate. So, anyway I’d been selected, I was worried. The Teacher actually phoned me up, my Teacher, John Edgell, legend, had driven Tireless, said, “No, you’ll be fine, you’ll be alright.” I think a week before the Course I went into the trainer just to get my eye in on the Periscope quickly before the Course started, and that’s what happened. And then it was Perisher.
Simon: And that’s without going back to a submarine then. That was …
Jim: Yeah, it was 2 years without having to step foot on a submarine, and Teacher was right, Perisher, I’m sure will want me to talk about Perisher later in much more detail, it is about Warfare but if you go on Perisher, not understanding how a submarine is fought, then again you fail. You should already know that. It’s a Leadership Course. It teaches you how to command, so I was unduly worried because I knew I could do the Maths. I wasn’t the best at it by any stretch of the imagination, but I knew what to look at when, and my Maths might be a bit out, my stopwatches you know, but eyes only is great fun. It’s almost a ballet, it’s fascinating. To watch it’s fascinating, to be able to do it. It’s another one of those things that when it clicks, and you’ve gone from one ship to five ships all at the same time, just with stopwatches and mental Maths, it’s something you feel really proud of actually. You can do that for the first time. So yeah, you get that bit out of the way, that way the bit I was worried about.
Simon: It does … it blows my mind to think that you, not trying to successfully summing up what’s going on around you and the … ‘cos all the boats of course can move as well. I mean you’re taking a brief look at doing the Maths and then keeping a mental map inside your head.
Jim: That’s exactly what it is.
Simon: It’s just extraordinary.
Jim: That’s a great way of putting it for a non-Submariner. Clearly you’ve spoken to a few Submariners ‘cos that’s exactly it. So, I remember a basic Warfare Course, a guy called Andy Coles, ‘Dumpy’ Coles was the Course Officer, and one morning he tried to explain what this was like. We’d never even see a Periscope. He said, “Right, we’ll do the Periscope Drills.” He had 2 toilet rolls … have you heard this story?
Simon: No.
Jim: Came out of the classroom across the road to the Sea Wall at Dolphin, and one by one gave us the 2 toilet rolls and said, “Right, that’s your Periscope, put them over your eyes but kneel down behind the wall. So, I want you to stand up, with your back facing the water and slowly do a 360 turn.” So, we all did, he didn’t tell us why, he said, “Look through, kneel down again and right, what did you see?” “Where are all the ships?” “Oh shit, you didn’t tell me I was going to have to do that.” So, then we started to understand and he said, “Right, next time, that’s what you’re going to do. You’re going to stand up, you’re going to do an all-round look, you’re going to kneel down again and you’ll tell me what you see.” So, there’s a ship over there, it’s about 3000 yards away, it’s angle on the bow is this, amazing. And that’s what you’re trying to instil, very, very early on. Perisher’s the PhD, that’s what it is. But ultimately you’re right, it’s got nothing to do with stopwatches, it’s everything to know about what is the most dangerous thing out there and how long have you got before it’s going to become a problem, and that and a whole analogy you take forward in a lot of what you do as a CO of a submarine, is understanding where the next problem is, how long you’ve got to solve it before you need to react in different manners. Do I need to evade and run, do I need to stop and hide, do I need to put the mast down and do nothing, so that’s what eyes only is teaching you. I mean it looks good, it’s cool, it’s fun. The guys on the Astute Class, they still do it but they don’t have to physically manhandle a huge Periscope and get oil dripped on them with lots of shouting around them. It’s all much calmer now because it’s all on a screen. They still have to do the Maths but you’ve got somebody else actually moving the Periscope. It’s not the same and I’m not saying it’s wrong ‘cos it’s not. It’s what we’ve got to do to move forward. I just feel that it’s a shame that they don’t have that experience at sea to have said that they’ve done this for real. Again, the Trainer, 2 ships, easy., easy/ Two ships at sea first time, very different. The Periscopes different, it moves.
Simon: What’s the difference then of being at sea?
Jim: Everything. And that why I got asked when I was Teacher eventually that you know, ‘why can’t we do this all in the Trainer? Why do you need to go to sea?’ It’s almost something … it makes everyone that’s passed Perisher kind of giggles at the question ‘cos we know that you have to be at sea to do it. So, in the Trainer, for example, doing eyes only, the Periscope is very easy to move, it’s always at the right height, you can always see out of it, there’s never any rain. You know the Instructor can put fog in, they can rain in but it’s just not the same. You’ve got to wait for the Periscope to raise. You’ve got to kneel down to meet it. You’ve got to stop it when it’s just above the height of the water. In the Trainer, it’s fixed. The noise, the Trainer’s got more space in it ‘cos it has to have space to be able to train. In a submarine, the place is full. The Ship Controller, the guy controlling the submarine, the Panel Operator, the Planesman who is not in the Trainer, you don’t see a Planesman in the Trainer. You don’t know … you quickly realise well he’s a good Planesman. He’s good, I know I can … he’s good. I know if I have to go deep quick, he will go quick, and he’ll react and he listens. And the Periscope Operator, the guy that’s actually raising and lowering the mast, you say he’s good, he’s not going to break my nose ‘cos he accidentally lowers the mast on me. You know, half his … he can raise and lower the mast. None of that happens in the Trainer. So, the Trainer is teaching you the mechanics, it’s honing your Maths skills, it’s teaching you the rules. At sea, yes all of that is true, but it’s different, it’s more complex, there’s more going on, there’s more noise. You know, you could have an emergency half way through. Something real could happen. The boat could not be on depth. You put a mast up and all you see is water ‘cos you haven’t checked depth. In the Trainer, you can simulate that but it’s not the same. Or you can go off depth half way round the target setup or all-round look or whatever. It’s very different and you know, 2 ships, easy, at sea, very different, very different and of course the ships that you’re attacking in the Trainer are computer simulations and they do what they’re told. Sometimes the ship doesn’t do what it’s told or not because it’s not trying to, the weather might be awful or it might turn a bit close. If it come close, then you’ve got to do something about it. Very, very, very different.
65 minutes 27 seconds
Simon: What was your experience of Perisher like?
Jim: So, as we’ve just discussed, Perisher is something that is always there, from joining up as a Warfare Officer. It’s always something you aspire to, so finally getting selected as I say is one hurdle. Day 1, is another hurdle, and you’re straight into it. You know I think when we did it there was a week of visits which was handy and I subsequently realised as Teacher it’s more about ensuring that the Course bonds than anything else. It’s useful stuff but it’s not the be all and end all, and then you’re straight into eyes only so …
Simon: When it’s visits, what does that mean?
Jim: Oh you go to Northwood and it’s visits that are relevant, but it’s quite a nice way to ease your way in. Slightly different now, I’ll come back to that. And then you’re straight into Trainers and you know you’ve got what 3 ½ or 4 months in a portacabin basically. The first 3 weeks I think, maybe more, can’t remember, is eyes only, is Periscope work which I think worries everybody at the beginning because you should know the rules, you should know the Maths, but there’s pressure there, Teacher is watching you and he’s assessing from the minute you walk through the door, all the way through and I know that now, because obviously I was Teacher. You can’t help it anyway. You’ve got such a small Course, there’s only a maximum of 6, so you get to know the individuals really, really well and of course the Course of 6 get to know each other really, really well as well. We made a conscious decision as a lot do in the early stages we’d all live in the Base, even if we lived close, again just to bond a bit and get that levelled away. We all knew each other anyway but not as well as we could have done. A couple of us had served together but not all of us, so that was good.
Simon: Were they all British or …?
Jim: Yeah, on my Course, yep. The Course constructs change quite a lot since the demise of the diesel boats. When we still had diesel boats and run a diesel boat Perisher, we used to have students from all over the world. If you ran diesel boats, you could come on the British Perisher. During that time and all the way through until I was Teacher and now, the Dutch kind of took that over because they still run diesel boats. Their Perisher is exactly the same as ours. In fact, most are actually, so they’ve taken that mantle really, and the International Teachers get together quite regularly to discuss Course content and what’s changed and what’s new and any old thing. Periscope Drills remain, the first thing that they all do. So, that’s what you do, you start with 1 ship, you very quickly get to 2 and 3 and then it gets more difficult, you go to 4 and 5 and then Teacher puts some funnies in, you know they do something unexpected or you’ve got to shoot at them, called Zero G Attacks which again is a lot of mental gymnastics to get a straight firing torpedo to hit the ship. A Mark 8 torpedo so Belgrano was hit with a Mark 8 so you have to judge the speed of the ship to get the angle that you shoot at to make sure that the two converge and there’s a lot of mental gymnastics in that. Again, it just adds pressure, and in the Trainer you fire helicopters at it so you can see them, which is good so …
Simon: So you can watch the torpedo or the …
Jim: As soon as the student shoots, you can put it on a screen and you can see if you’re going to hit the ship or not. So, there’s all that and then you know the final week of that, you’re doing runs in the dark and just with nav lights on or going backwards or you know, a bit of fun. Teacher takes your stopwatches off you. That’s interesting ‘cos then you realise it isn’t about stopwatches, it’s about knowing what to look at when. Keeping yourself safe. You don’t need a stopwatch to do that, if you’re getting it right. And the amazing thing is, your timing’s pretty much right. You still write all the timings down when you’re looking at everything and you compare the two and you’re not that far off.
Simon: Is that ‘cos it’s like a muscle memory? You’ve learnt it, you’ve been through it so many times.
70 minutes
Simon: There’s a bit of that. The numbers you start to learn. You know if someone says a number and immediately you know what the range and the look interval is. It’s just … it happens so often, so yeah, there’s that, the eyes-only bit. And then you’re starting to prepare for the tactical phase so halfway through that Teacher gives you the runs that you’re going to be doing, in the tactical phase which again is a couple of months, which is , well it’s tactical submarinering. There’s a little bit of eyes only in it if you get that close, but otherwise it’s intelligence gathering, it’s following another submarine or a ship or taking Periscope photography, which is a really, really good way actually. I realised only when I was Teacher why we did so much, so many periphots because it brings everything together in one place. You’ve got an aim, you’re in very, very shallow waters so there’s navigation to really worry about. You take all the nav aids away from there as well and you’ve got loads of Warships, helicopters in very close proximity, particularly off the Isle of Arran which is the perfect training ground. So, you’re in the tactical phase and it kind of gets you ready for being at sea because you’re going to do similar games there . You’ll have a submarine, live for probably 3 days to go and do some big sub stuff, you’ll do eyes only early, you’ll take Periscope reconnaissance, you’ll work with Maritime Patrol aircraft and helicopters, Special Forces, all that sort of stuff, so you’re trying to …
Simon: This is during Perisher, where you’re then in a submarine.
Jim: Yeah, so that comes next, so the Trainer phase again it does get a bit laborious ‘cos you’re Duty Captain. There are 6 of us so you know only one in six you’re actually the Duty Captain but there’s always a role for you. The AC, the Attack Co-ordinator, or you the Periscope Operator or you’re on the Plot, navigating, so I think we ran ours so we had 2 people stood down all the time, could go and do their chart work and of course when I did Perisher, it was proper Periscopes and proper charts, it was paper charts. We all had to draw our own charts up, which is complicated. It’s not difficult, it just requires accuracy and it’s very, very time consuming. So, that was that.
Simon: And the charts that you’re drawing are … could you explain what the charts are …?
Jim: So, the charts, sea maps …
Simon: That’s the underground, the underneath the water.
Jim: So the difference with the more highly classified ones is that they’re very detailed topographical hydrographic charts, and that’s important because you can navigate if you know what the bottom slope is, so if you know that you’re about to go over a 50-metre contour, a 100 metre contour and you take a sounding at that time, then you know you’re somewhere on that line. You go a bit further, you take another sounding, you know you’re somewhere on that line. The two will intersect, you can fix the submarine’s position, just by using an echo sounder and stopwatch, which we still learn, even in this time with GPS and really good compasses and gyros onboard that don’t require … you can almost leave them alone, they’ll tell you where you are in the world, but you don’t get that luxury on Perisher, it’s taken away from you. And that can be … the tuition happens in the Trainer so Teacher will, yes he’s assessing but he’s also got to teach and every Teacher says the same thing. You’ve got a Teacher for a reason. You’re not called Assessor, you’re called Teacher and what I used to say to my students is if someone does fail, part of that failure is mine because I should have been able to teach you. You’ve been selected for the Course, so more than one person thinks you’re capable of passing it and being a successful submarine CO. You’re passed over to me and if I fail you, part of that blame has got to lay with the Teacher, it just has. So, that’s that bit, again it gets a bit laborious and I saw on the other side, you know you could see the shoulders dipping after the last couple of weeks. ‘Oh, we’re not going to do this again are we?’ so we try and punctuate that with a bit of other stuff. We used to get the RAF in, the MPA Pilots to … if there was an MPA game …
Simon: What does that mean?
Jim: Maritime Patrol Aircraft, so back in the day the Nimrods or the P8s now. You get the crews in that are Sonar experts and rather than us guess as Trainer, you’re the aeroplane, we’ll be the submarine. Brilliant fun and we’d go to Kinloss and do the same thing. They’d do a simulation in their aircraft, chasing and hunting for submarines, but rather than let the Instructor run the submarine, we’d run the submarine. We’d say, “No, no, no, that’s not what we do. We’d do this” and of course you’d end up in the Bar and you’d have lots of chats about tactical issues. Really powerful good stuff …
75 minutes 15 seconds
Simon: For both sides.
Jim: For both sides and we’ve always tried to do that again with the Surface Fleet as well with the Anti-submarine Warfare Specialists. Now we haven’t got Dolphin, it’s much more difficult obviously to get them up to Faslane. It doesn’t happen as much as it should, that’s for sure. But with P8s now a thing still up in Lossie, that happens again now, which is really good. Anti-submarine Warfare, if you’re a Sonar Specialist, doesn’t matter where you’re sitting, you’re still listening, you’re still … Maths is the same. So, that’s good. You do all those games and then there’s usually a bit of a break before you go to sea. More visits at which time again you’re just preparing yourself for going to sea mentally, definitely. We used to discuss, we used to get together in the Bar when we were drawing our charts up because drawing charts up, for the guys going through now, they just don’t understand how much hassle that was, how much time it took, hours and hours and hours drawing charts, so we decided on our Course, I think most did, that we’d just get all the charts we needed ‘cos once they were used they were used, that was it, you were done. So, you knew for the inshore weekends for example, how many charts you’re likely to need so we’d just divvy them up, straight down the middle and go, “Right, you do those 6, I’ll do …” you know it might be the same, just do them. Very, very time consuming, but we used to say, “Right, 9 o’clock, we’re stopping work, we’ll meet in the Bar.” We used to play a game called Perudo, a dice game, every night.
Simon: I love that game.
Jim: Oh God, it was fun.
Simon: It’s liar’s dice.
Jim: Yeah effectively but with lots of submarine terminology on the top of it and you know if you said, “4 5s” everyone was going, “Engage” and anyway, just great fun, and the topic of conversation was always the sea phase, all about going to sea. In a month we’re going to know. Because you get told if you’re going to pass or fail during the sea phase.
Simon: Oh right, so not beforehand.
Jim: Not beforehand. It’s changed slightly now. We’ll come onto some of the differences later I guess. So, we know what submarine we’re going to. Of course, as soon as you’re told, you know which boat it is as soon as you get there, it’s in the programme, unless it breaks down of course, which does happen a lot. The submarine that is chosen to do Perisher is usually one that’s just finished a pretty intense period of training with Flag Officer Sea Training, staff. Probably done a full workup. That’s quite deliberate ‘cos what Teacher is about to put that submarine through is unique. Some of the stuff you do, the places you go, it only happens on Perisher.
Simon: Wow!
Jim: And again you don’t really understand that until you have driven, particularly when you have become Teacher and you are responsible for it, yeah fascinating. So, they’re highly trained and of course that’s intense for the crew, and we all know that. They’ve just been through 6 or 8 weeks of intense training, they’re tired. They probably, hopefully back in the day they’d get a run ashore in between and then effectively they’re doing work up again, but they’re doing it with 6 different Captains. That’s the difference for them and they have to react to that Captain, not their Captain, that Captain. And everyone realises that. There’s a lot of pressure on the crew. It should be fun for the Warfare guys; it should be fun ‘cos you’re doing stuff every day. The Junior Warfare Officers it’s brilliant to be able to see Perisher. I was lucky, I’d seen three before I went on it as a Navigator predominantly, so I knew, I’d seen it. Yeah, amazing. So, yeah and then you’re told off you go, you go to sea and we did ours in HMS Sovereign, so brilliant for me. ‘S’ boats, love ‘S’ boats, just done 3 jobs in ‘S’ boats in a row so understood the layout, which I really like and of course, funny old thing, we know a lot of the crew, we just do. And Teacher gives you a brief that probably hasn’t changed. Certainly, I used to give very similar briefs that John Edghill gave to us and that was , “You’re the Captain, just remember that. Don’t look round for me or for anyone else because when you’re in command, you are that person, so try and remember that and try and make a decision, and if it’s wrong, I’ll jump in.” That’s what it’s about, it’s about learning. And also, we all understand we’re being assessed right from word go but again Teacher would have said, “Look first couple of weeks, we get eyes only out the way” that’s always the first 4 or 5 days, “Get that out the way ‘cos you can fail.” You can fail at any time but if people are going to fail Perisher, in the early stages it will be during eyes only. That’s the first of five phases where if you can’t do that, then you can’t really do the rest of the Course ‘cos you can’t prove that you’re safe. So, you’re worried about that. You’re worried and how good do you think you are. You do worry about it until you get your first run out the way and if it goes alright, you go, “Ok, I can do this” and I guess it’s realising that you can do it. For me, I was worried about it. I think after Day 2 I thought yeah, I’m alright, I can do this. I’m not a Mathematician but I could do it. I understood it and certainly as Teacher, you can actually see that moment after a run. You can see, you can physically say, “Right, he’s got it. He understands.”
81 minutes 26 seconds
Simon: What, changes on their face?
Jim: The confidence. You do sweat a lot on a traditional Periscope and it’s hot and the Control Room is crowded. Apart from the fact that it’s a bloody interesting spectator sport, ‘cos you get some of the crew coming in and you know, rubbernecking over the top, seeing a couple of runs. You try and allow that as much as you can, and in between runs you try and have them have a look through the Periscope, ‘cos they’re never going to see a Warship that close. And of course, it’s fun. Once you realise you can do it and you understand what you’re looking at and you understand this is probably the only time you’re going to see two or three Warships charging at you, getting really close, you know, 1200 yards, that is close. That fills your Periscope up.
Simon: Really?
Jim: Oh God yeah. It really does and especially when they’re at full speed, 29, 30 knots, huge bow wave and when they turn they heel right over, and you get a lovely day to do it and you’re doing it off the west coast of Scotland. It’s a lovely day and you’ve got the backdrop of the west coast, it’s pretty special. You don’t get much time to kind of take that in. As Teacher you do ‘cos you’ve got more time to look through the Periscope. So, that’s that. That’s eyes only. We lost, I think we lost our first after that, and that’s brutal. The position is a bottle of whisky. The Senior Student is told first. Goes to the Captain’s cabin, Teacher is in there with the Captain, saying we’re going to get rid of ‘x’ in 20 minutes. We’re going to put the submarine on the surface, we’re going to get a helicopter, we’re going to get him in, you’re going to pack his bags, make it as painless as possible. He goes in, there’s a bottle of whisky on the table, he knows. I always wondered, we lost two, at what stage they knew they might fail. I think one kind of knew and the other one not sure did.
Simon: Wow!
Jim: They were both brilliant people and very bright actually, very, very bright. Anyway, so we lost two quite quickly, interesting.
Simon: And what effect does that have on the other people doing Perisher then?
Jim: Black humour. It becomes a friend really. On one side, when it happens, even if you can see it happening, when it actually happens it’s a shock. ‘Christ, this is real’ and you feel for the person that’s being removed but also it brings it home how real this is. You know, this is it. If we fail this, we’ll probably never walk onboard a submarine again and we’re desperate to command one, so yeah, ouch, how does that feel for the individual? And I didn’t understand that until I became Teacher actually. It turns out these guys have got it, you know they understood, they were fine. Fine, can’t do it, it’s not for me and doesn’t mean to say your career is over in the Navy, go off and do something else and be very successful in some circumstances.
Simon: So, your mind has been sharpened by the loss of two.
Jim: ‘Cos you know it can happen at any time, and especially when it happens quickly. Then the black humour clutches in and you know, there are four of us left, Teacher is in with the Captain, there’s a bottle of whisky, it is joking about it, it’s that level of friendship. I mean you truly know the people you are on Perisher with. You know the whole submarine crew, when you’re in a submarine. In individual Messes, the Junior Rates, the Senior Rates, the Ward Room, you know. You’re stuck in a tiny place for a lot of time. Again, Perisher amplifies that ‘cos you are literally, you’ve been together already for what 4 months, pretty much day and night, long hours and then you’re socialising to take some pressure off and look after each other. We didn’t know it but we were looking after each other’s mental health. Now we recognise it as that.
85 minutes 48 seconds
Simon: That’s interesting.
Jim: But it was an automatic response and that’s good, the Submarine Service is pretty good at that. We didn’t realise we were doing it, but that’s a massive part …
Simon: That black humour and being supportive and you know, you can do it …
Jim: Supportive, and it can be pretty brutal. You know it doesn’t mean to say you can’t take the piss fairly relentlessly and you take it to a level and if it’s going too far, you ease a way back. You might occasionally take it a little bit too far and you go, “Oh, sorry mate” and then very quickly it’ll clutch in again and … so there was a lot of that on our Course. A lot of banter, a lot of humour, a lot of laughter, even with Teacher and we had some properly funny incidences where we all cracked up. You know, even in the Control Room half way through a run we’d just burst into laughter, you know, Teacher included.
Simon: Was that relief after that?
Jim: No I think by that stage, so this is the Tactical Phase. You go through a number of phases. You’ve done eyes only, I think for us then we went into deep water and we did an ASW, Anti-submarine Warfare with another submarine. We were all quite comfortable with that, we bloody well should be by then, and to get the opportunity to go up against another submarine as the Captain for the first time, and there’s a huge amount of bragging rights, ‘cos you know who’s on the other submarine, and the Captain of the submarine that you’re doing Perisher on, knows the Captain of that submarine and he wants to bloody beat him, and the other submarine wants to beat the Perisher boat.
Simon: And the beating is detecting is it?
Jim: Detecting or shooting. You simulate a torpedo shot, and to get the first one away, oh, massive bragging rights, and some lie about it, you know, did we actually hit him or do we just tell him we’d hit him? Anyway, I mean it’s all of it, being a Submariner actually. A huge amount of pride actually, for the ship’s Company as well. You know it’s pride, it’s what they want and you have to recognise that as a Captain that your actions have pretty extreme consequences if you get it right, or you get it wrong. So, we were getting more comfortable that we were going to pass and we didn’t start talking about failure apart from taking the piss out of each other for ‘you’re going to fail because your rubbish’ and this, that and the other. Having a lot of banter about it and if that banter is open, you know and it’s happening to everybody, you kind of know that you all mean it. It’s like taking the piss out of someone. If someone doesn’t have the piss taken out of them, ok, maybe you’re not quite in the same area of friendship as everyone else, so yeah, I mean lots and lots of fun. Lots of work still to do, getting all the charts done. Then you’ve got the first inshore weekend which the two inshore weekends are the bits that really matter. I mean it all matters but because of the intensity of those weekends, not just because you’re in very shallow water, very close confines of the shore with at least Warships each have got helicopters plus another Squadron of helicopters, plus Maritime Patrol Aircraft, you may even have another submarine around, so a Dutch boat was doing Perisher at the same time as us, so when the water was deep enough, it was around, plus the fact that the sea phase of Perisher was run during a major NATO Exercise on the west coast. Back in our day it was JMC, now it’s Joint Warrior. That can be huge, that can involve you know American Aircraft Carriers, our Aircraft Carriers, big Task Groups. It is NATO, it’s a really important Course for that alliance and we get to sit under it and the NATO Planners will use the submarine because we’re rare assets where they can, but there’s an understanding that actually the Submariner’s needs have to come first in the WAG and there’s bits of it where we don’t want the rest of the Task Group to know what we’re doing because we’re trying to be covert. So, some people onboard know that we’re trying to intelligence against them, and sometimes we’ll be, they call them ‘Purple Submarines’ so we’re hostile to both sides ‘cos in Joint Warrior there’s a war at the end and if there’s not enough submarines, then we’ll attack anything we see. That’s towards the end of the Course, so the inshore weekends, we’ve done all our charts, it’s a bloody nightmare, it’s very intense, then you’re changing Duty Captain probably every 4 to 6 hours probably.
90 minutes 46 seconds
Simon: Just because it’s so punishing.
Jim: So, for every Periscope photograph, or sensor lay, there’s a new Captain, a new team, so you have to get in, do what you’ve got to do, get out where it’s relatively calm, handover to the next team and then start to go back in again, so if there are 4 on Course, which there were on ours, that means we were all busy on every run, pretty much. You could stand 1 down occasionally for a cup of tea, ‘cos it’s not intense all the time. And there’s food to eat and there’s sleep to be had and you know, everything else, normal life has to continue. And some of the stuff we do, as I say, you only do on Perisher.
Simon: So, it really is the testing of the most extreme situation.
Jim: It is, and you know those words from Teacher get reiterated … every evening you have a de-brief or a brief as it sometimes is, a little shouting it. You know, you are the Captain. Stop asking me questions now. The first inshore weekend is still a learning experience. Teacher will teach and guide and chewing the runts and ‘why are you doing that?’ and is always asking questions. “Why are you doing that?”
Simon: Even seemed like questions were asked when I watched the programme, you’re asking questions even though they had made the right decision, to make sure that they knew that they’d made the right decision.
Jim: I didn’t realise it at the time, there’s a hefty amount of psychological warfare going on. If I ask enough questions, will he change his mind because he thinks that he’s … can I sway him just by saying, “Why?” “Why are you doing that.” Well, I’m … you know, x,y,and z, and sometimes I’m asking because I don’t agree with him. Sometimes it is absolutely the right thing, I’ll still ask the question. “Why did you do it, is there a better way of doing it?” and often there’s more than one way of doing it. So, yeah, there is a lot of … and I didn’t realise that until I became Teacher as well, but again great fun. If you get a good run and you’ve got Warships charging you, and if you’re doing well, Teacher will pop a flare up and let them know. “Right, come and attack us.”
Simon: Oh really?
Jim: Oh definitely.
Simon: Oh my goodness.
Jim: You put an all-round look in, so you’ve got the mast down for most of the time and you’re at Periscope depth, so you’re in a dangerous position in terms of water column because you’re not at a depth that a Warship can pass over the top of you safely, you’re at Periscope depth. At Periscope depth you should have a Periscope up, but eyes only teaches you that actually you can keep the Periscope down because you know how much time you’ve got before you need to look at whatever you need to look at to make sure it’s still safe, ‘cos that’s more covert. That’s what eyes only is about. Keep the Periscope down for as long as you can and then you can kind of bend if you understand the rules absolutely, you can then play tunes on it. So actually, he’s not at maximum speed, so we do all the Maths on maximum speed, you use true range rates so you know what speed that’s doing, you’ve got more time to leave the Periscope down. So, there’s that and then you know you can put the mast up for an all-round look and the Duty AC, the Attack Co-ordinator, who is working for the Duty Captain, Teacher’s just popped a flare up, we’re on fire back there, everyone knows where we are (laughs) so you know when you’re going to get attacked. When the mast goes up and you have a look, you can see the bloody flare. Here we go, and then all the helicopters and ships come in and charge you. That was … so Teacher’s planned this and he know what the ships are going to do and I realised as Teacher, sometimes you don’t, they’ll just come and attack, so you’re really got to be on your game then because you might be going deep for real because the ships …
Simon: For self-preservation.
Jim: Yeah, you don’t want to get dangerous, so there’s all that and then Teacher will say, “Right, you’ve got to put a mast up to communicate” or “You’ve got Special Forces” or “You need to have a look at a specific time for activity on the shore” or this, that and the other. And again, I realise now that was to make sure that you were in the right place at the right time so if you could be attacked and he had all the assets around you ready to .. if he wanted to attack. So, that’s that, that is intense. There’s an added intensity, and we’ve changed it slightly over the years, is that you’ve got your first group of VIPs that come onboard to have a look. That can range from politicians to senior military leaders to whoever is deemed a useful asset. Some are military people who we think are going to be the leaders of the future, just to show them what the Submarine Service does, because what a great snapshot. And on a weekend you get to see a hell of a lot and it’s busy, it’s intense.
95 minutes 43 seconds
Simon: All the toys are out.
Jim: All the toys are out, yeah, you’re right and there’s lots of briefing going on and it’s intense, you can feel it, it is palpable. I’ve not yet met a VIP that doesn’t come off with a massive smile and they’re in awe of what they’ve seen. So there’s that to add and there’s usually a Senior Submariner there as well who’s just having a little chat, not just with the students but with Teacher. I didn’t realise that until I became Teacher but there is definitely a ‘yeah, he’s alright, he’s doing alright.’ So, first inshore weekend is over if you’re all still there, you’re pretty happy and then if you’ve not done the subbly sub you’ll go and do that or you get involved with Joint … one or the other, then for a couple of weeks they’ll probably insert a bit of Special Forces stuff in there which is great fun.
Simon: What does that mean? Social Forces?
Jim: Special Forces, so we practice landing and recovery of troops which is … it sounds easy doesn’t it? You surface, you get rid of them, you dive. It’s much more complicated than that. You get all their kit in the right place at the right time and all the preparations that go with that beforehand and another great thing to do for a student to look at how he’s going to manage it and lead the team and look after the SF and again it’s a great thing to do. Who doesn’t like doing that sort of stuff? So, that’s that and then you’re sort of heading in to the final inshore weekend which you know is it. You know at the end of that, one way or the other, you’re going to melt and we’re all still here, so the odds are pretty good. You know you go into the … ‘cos there’s another stage if you know Teacher thinks you’re not going to pass at that stage they’ll get rid of you before you embarrass yourself with more VIPs and actually it’s not good for the rest of the Course to see someone floundering at that stage, so that’s another top point. It didn’t happen, we got VIPs onboard so that was Flag Officer Submarines on our Course, and Commander in Chief I think, Fleet was with us, anyway bigwigs you know and we’re Lieutenants. We did this … I was left out anyway, definitely 2 Lieutenants and 2 left I think on the Course at that stage, so you’re pretty junior, and you know who these people are. You might not have ever met them but you bloody all know who they are, and you know that Teacher’s about to make a decision. Starts on Friday, they get onboard, and you’re straight into it. There is no mucking about. They’re onboard, it starts then. The hatches shut, you get underwater, you’re straight in to the first run and that’s usually at night ‘cos they’re getting on at night, bang bang, you’re away. On our Course, I didn’t have another run until Sunday afternoon, which I took as probably quite good news.
Simon: ‘Cos you’d proven yourself.
Jim: Well I didn’t really understand it. I thought right, one run, I think I might have another one. Anyway, I knew the Flag Lieutenant to the Admiral at the time and finished that run and you are allowed to smoke onboard at the time, and I was a smoker. You go up to the bulkhead and have a cigarette, calm down, relax, feeling pretty good about myself, thinking ‘yep, that was alright,’ Teacher seemed happy. At this stage Teacher is saying nothing, other than, “Why?” I mean really nothing, he’s standing back now and again as I realised there’s a bit of Teacher wanting to show the VIPs, his students. There is pride there, definitely, they’re your people, but I knew the Flag Lieutenant. He said, “Oh, well done mate.” I said, “What are you talking about? He said, “I’ve just come out of the Captain’s cabin, you’ve passed.”
Simon: Wow!
Jim: I said, “What?” He said, “Yeah, well done” and shook my hand. “You’re not supposed to tell me that. We get told on Sunday.” “Oh sh*t, keep it quiet.” How, whether he went back and told Teacher because anyway we’ll come to the final day, but it was bloody funny. I don’t think he did but anyway, I can’t remember. I think I told the rest of my guys on the Course it had happened. You still don’t know and every single Perisher student gets asked the same question, at what stage did you know you passed? Well, there’s only one stage when you know you have passed is when Teacher hands you a glass of champagne, says, “Congratulations Captain.” You can be as open about it as you like. You can be as optimistic as you like, but if you’re honest, you don’t know, so I didn’t know. I took that with a pinch of salt and there’s still a lot of work to do and we went through and we were really supporting each other in getting through it. It’s tiring, ‘cos it 24 / 7. Again I didn’t realise how tired Teacher would get ‘cos he’s up for all of them, he’d doing every run obviously.
100 minutes 59 seconds
Simon: Oh wow, right.
Jim: It’s not until you become Teacher that you realise that. I mean you obviously know it but you don’t realise the intensity. Anyway, we got to the Sunday, the last couple of runs. We knew it was the last run. I was stood down at the time and we could feel the boat going back to PD. That’s it, this us, we’re about to surface, a bloody Warship there. Charges went deep again. Ah shit! This happened about three times and we were starting to take the piss out of the Duty Captain at the time and the AC said, “Come on fellas, we know it’s finished.” Teacher in the meantime is coming over to me and he says, “You’ve got the next run Jim.” I said, “There is no next run.” He said, “No, the Admiral wants to see you again” so it was really good, and I was thinking ‘oh shit is that because of this, that and the other’ and again you need to try and make it special. It’s like getting your dolphins. You don’t just do it in passing, you make something of it. You make it an event and that’s very much the same of that final day, that last bit. Teacher will say, “I have the submarine, surface” off you go. Take the Safeguard Rule out of force, that’s a Rule that’s in place …
Simon: Take the what, sorry?
Jim: The Safeguard Rule. So, it means that you can call an emergency without going for exercise. So, if it’s real, you’ve got to say the word, “Safeguard” first. It’s very powerful actually. It’s simple but you know … hearing, “Fire, fire, fire” rather than “For exercise, for exercise, for exercise” is powerful, and that Rule is in force pretty much the whole of Perisher.
Simon: So, everything that gets raised has to be treated as if it’s real.
Jim: Absolutely, and if it is real, then it’s got the word ‘Safeguard’ and it happens. It happens every Perisher. There’s always a Safeguard, there’s always something goes wrong, something breaks or there’s an emergency because of where you are and what you’re doing, and things just happen, you’ve just got to react to it. You know it’s finished then. You know that’s it’s done and you’re told to go away, go down the Bomb Shop, the weapon stowage compartment where we all slept, and just wait to be called. In fact, on an ‘S’ boat we were in Cab space so be on this number.
Simon: What’s it like inside that room at that point then, ‘cos you’re still on a knife edge ?
Jim: It’s quite quiet. It is, ‘cos how do you think you’ve done and we’d all passed and again we were a very tight … we were all telling each other, “Don’t worry, we have all passed. We have passed this Course.” It’s brutal to get that far and not to be told you’ve passed. It does happen and we know it happens, but yeah, what a way to go, and if that happens, you probably … I’ve never seen it but you’d like to think the first person called is probably the one that’s failed. Get him out the way of the celebrations that are going to happen after. Anyway, it’s interesting. ‘Oh God’ you know and lots of banter again. ‘He failed, you’re rubbish’ a lot of smiling faces, a lot of relief, either way it goes.
Simon: Right, it’s finished now, either way.
Jim: You’re tired by then although we got a lot of sleep in. I got a lot of piss taken out of me because I got … I do like my bed. Sleep is a weapon, that’s what we were told and I took that very literally, especially the inshore weekends, you’re taking short catnaps really, a few hours at a time, so you’re pretty tired and you look tired. Yeah, and then you get a phone call, you go up. I think we did it in seniority order and you know straight away. You go into the Ward Room, the curtain comes back and there in front of you is Teacher with 2 glasses of champagne. Gives you one, shakes your hand, “Congratulations Captain.”
Simon: Right.
Jim: And the Admiral … and it’s Teacher that does it. It’s not the VIPs that do it and I think that’s absolutely right. There is a bond and it’s a special moment for Teacher actually, it really is. “Congratulations Captain, you’ve passed and you’re going to be the XO of …” you tell them where they are going.
Simon: Oh wow, there and then.
Jim: So, Teacher will know what submarines are available from the Course. And the students will have worked it out anyway ‘cos they know who the XOs are and where they’re going and what’s coming up, and they will also have a preference. Is it a bomber, is it a ‘T’ boat in Devonport, is it an ‘S’ boat in Faslane, is it a diesel boat? Whatever. So, we were all asked what our preference was and etc etc. I think there was a ‘S’ boat on ours, I can’t remember. Anyway, …
105 minutes 34 seconds
Simon: What’s that feeling like when he says Captain?
Jim: If I remember, I was junior Joe so I was probably last up.
Simon: And you haven’t seen what’s happened to the other ones.
Jim: No, they stay in the Ward Room. You’re on your own. If you’re the last one you’re …
Simon: So they’re then an audience of you, ok.
Jim: Yeah, and of course the Captain of Boats is there, all the VIPs are there so the only people in that room are people that have passed Perisher, or you’ve got a VIP, military people and Submariners.
Simon: And the feeling?
Jim: Oh, there’s often tears. I mean you are desperately trying to hold them back but you can definitely see people welling up. They very rarely come out but you know it’s just … you think you know but you don’t know until it happens and he tells you where you’re going. I was told I had Talent which I was new to. Another SSN and then of course, immediately you’ve shaken hands with Teacher, and with the VIPs, ‘cos you know you do, then you’re back with your Course mates and congratulating each other and hugs and slaps on the back and then one glass goes to two and three and four and there’s a bit of food comes out occasionally and then of course the VIPs and Teacher want to know what they thought ‘cos there’s stuff that’s gone on that Teacher doesn’t know, that we think we’ve got away with. There was a few bits on our Course where we …
Simon: Oh really. You’ve realised something.
Jim: … he told us to talk to that Maritime Patrol Aircraft. We actually told them to go away and stop, but he’d say, “Yeah but I did this and the other did a Teacher funny” which is where they’ll get the members of crew to come into the Control Room and do something stupid, and we’d say, “Was that a Teacher …?” and he’d go, “No, that was genuine, that was actually that bloke who thought that was a good idea at the time” so you’re reliving it, but with Teacher’s input of what he’s seen. And of course, you get a formal de-brief later but this is all the funny stuff and the close passes, the moments where you puckered up a bit and you went, “Oh blimey, that was close” or ‘I learnt something there’ or this, that or the other. Yeah, brilliant, I mean absolutely … and by then you’re on the surface. You’re waiting for one of the boats to come alongside, one of the Paz boats to come alongside and pick you up. You’re usually 25 miles out and if you’re lucky you’re in a nice slow boat to go back because you’ve packed your bags, you’re ready to go. On leaving the Ward Room, loads of the Ship’s Company are there congratulating you, “Well-done, well-done Sir” and all this sort of stuff. ‘Cos they’ve got a sweepstake going.
Simon: Oh really.
Jim: Teacher will always say, “Don’t run a sweepstake.” Rubbish. When I was Teacher, I’d say, “I know you’re running a sweepstake, and I will ask you occasionally to see it, but I don’t encourage it. I know I can’t stop it.” They were usually right. They were usually right I tell you.
Simon: Interesting.
Jim: Yeah, so I mean massive smiles now for months of ‘wow’ and a dawning realisation that you’ve passed something that’s been on the horizon for 7,8, 10, 13 years. 13 years nowadays is quite normal. It’s a bit quicker for us.
Simon: All those hopes and …
Jim: Yeah and knowing that you’ve got another stage to your career and hopefully … and the stats would suggest that you’re going to drive a submarine, you’re going to be a Captain. I think the stats 90% of the people that pass will go and drive submarines, and that means promotion as well to Commander. Of course, you’ve got to get your 2nd in Command, your XO’s job out the way and you’ve got to do well and you’ve got to get the recommends but you’re not worrying about that after you’ve passed Perisher. You’ve passed Perisher and the other thing I noticed ‘cos I was the Lieutenant, in the Submarine Service you see Lieutenants calling Lieutenant Commanders, Sir, which you know it’s such a close Rank. Really? You don’t do that from Sub-Lieutenant to Lieutenant, although some do. Lieutenant to Lieutenant Commander, if you pass Perisher you’re very definitely Sir, and we realise that straight away. You don’t have to call me Sir. You passed Perisher, you’re Sir now.
Simon: Right.
110 minutes 10 seconds
Jim: It’s fantastic, and then for us we got on the Paz boat with the VIPs and we finished in the summer. It was a glorious day, with the VIPs. Our bags had been packed … well we packed our bags and then the Ship’s Company had put a couple of crates of beer in, and some more champagne and the whisky tat didn’t get drunk ‘cos we were still on Course, so there’s a pretty good few drinks had up river with Teacher and that’s just brilliant. That is something, and I’ve been lucky enough to be part of that obviously in my time as Teacher and as Com Sub Flot because I used to be one of the VIPs at the end. That’s a privilege to be a part of, because you do it once, you know I’ve been lucky to do it a number of times, but your own is so special. You get to the Mess. We got up to the Mess and the Bar was open ready for us. The Barman was congratulations, you know, you’ve passed Perisher and then the two of us that had our wives, our wives came in with the kids and oh, brilliant. And then of course they went and so there was just two of us left, so it was a bit different then.
Simon: What do you mean they went?
Jim: Well, they went home with their wives and families ‘cos they’re on the phone straight away. In fact mobiles were a thing then, so they were telling then straight away and then Bob and I were left. One of the Senior Rates came up to the Bar and said, “What are you doing now? You want to come down to the Senior Rates Mess for a game of pool.” Inshore, this is not the boat. By this time the boat I think had got alongside. In fact it must have done. We weren’t on it, we were on the Paz boat obviously, so we got invited up to the Senior Rates Mess and again same thing happened. Congratulations Sir, didn’t buy a drink all night and then we went ashore and down in [inaudible] and met a lot of the crew by that stage from Sovereign who were in, so Bob and I had bloody fabulous evening, not much of which we remember. We did finish with a decent curry with one of the killick Stokers actually who I’m still friends with to this day. We fell asleep actually, and then the next day is the Perisher Breakfast, so that’s another event which is iconic in the submarine community. You know for over 100 years now with Perisher, there’s been a Perisher Breakfast and it is breakfast. It’s a posh breakfast and it’s done, well in my day it was done in the morning, which for Bob and I was a bit of a problem (laughs) as you can imagine ‘cos you’re straight into more champagne and … but we fought it through, you know we fought it through and we went over to Captain Sea Training’s house and in our best uniform, which I think is a really nice thing to do. So, you’re all dressed up with the Boss, with the Captain Sea Training, with Teacher and some VIPs if you can get hold of the Captain of the submarine, or the Captain of the ships that had been involved then they come. Some from the RAF, Nimrods, really, really nice and agin there’s lots of banter, lots of stories, lots of congratulations, lots of toasts, lots of drinking and then for us, Captain Sea Training had to go back to work and left his Bar open to us so we got stuck into that. I think we finished about lunchtime and we decided we’d go back into the Mess and just have some more drinks, knowing that a lot of our mates … by this time it was Monday, they we’d actually see some of our other oppo’s and again the same thing happens. You know the Bar is full and everyone says, “Oh, congratulations” and you’re in your best uniforms, they know you’ve just had Perisher Breakfast. It’s just wonderful. The acknowledgement that you’ve just passed something really special.
Simon: And the support and the adulation as well.
Jim: Yeah, there is a bit of that. Very sincere. And that it, that’s that bit of it done and then there’s a few Courses to do. Often you get plucked out of those Courses because the boat need you early. That happened to Bob and I again were left as the only two left on Course, and again you’re going round to new Establishments that you haven’t been to so far on Course and you get treated differently, ‘cos you passed Perisher. “Oh, you passed Perisher, glass of champagne?” “Oh, not another one” (laughs). Everywhere, you go to an Army Barracks, or RAF, everyone understands, you’ve just passed. “Oh right, come to the Bar” that’s to congratulate you properly. We got looked after superbly well, really good. And then there’s some sort of Courses you have to do to become 2nd in Command which are generic across the navy. You go and do those again. You know you are joining a Course, there might be the XO of a Squadron of aircraft of a ship but again you’ve just passed Perisher, you’re on a high by then, having passed this Course. And then you’re thinking about the next job, and if you’re lucky you’ve got the boat you want and if you’re lucky you know the Captain you’re going to work for. In fact, you’ll definitely know the Captain. Whether you know, how well you know him, and what I didn’t realise until I became a Captain of course is there will have been a bidding war going on for you by those Captains who knows there’s an XO going to come off that Course. Without any question, and I had that when I was Teacher. You get phone calls, and each on of them, “I want him, I want him, I want him.” If you’re lucky, they all marry and of course it’s part of Teacher’s job to try and match. It’s not about the boat, it’s about matching with the Command Team actually. You’ve got a boisterous CO, then you need a less boisterous XO. You need ying and yang. You can’t have two … and we’re pretty likeminded thinkers anyway but it’s always good to have a foil, so we try and do that, try and match that and we brief up as Teacher to Captaincy Training say, “This is what I’m going to do” and it really within Teacher’s gift, both to pass or fail and tell them where they are going.
116 minutes 43 seconds
Simon: Would this be a good time to talk about your time as Teacher?
Jim: Yeah, I mean we’ll sort of fast forward a little bit into my command. I didn’t expect to be Teacher. It wasn’t on the horizon for me. It was something I wanted to do but the timing didn’t work. I knew when I was going to finish my command, I knew the guy that was Teacher, I knew he wasn’t due to leave that role for probably another year, and I thought well I’ll probably go and do something for a year and then be Teacher if people think it’s the right place for me to go.
Simon: Why did you think that it might be? That you might be Teacher. ‘Cos someone had said to you that you would be.
Jim: No, I think at the end of Perisher, Teacher will say, “Yeah, you could be a candidate to be Teacher in the future.”
Simon: I see.
Jim: You’ve got a lot of hurdles to pass. It’s too early to say at Perisher.
Simon: But keep it in your head.
Jim: And I think there are two halves of people. There’s the half that absolutely want to be Teacher because it’s such an important iconic role, and there’s others that absolutely don’t want to do it because it can ruin you as well, I mean it really can.
Simon: And it’s a single role. There is just one Teacher.
Jim: There is now, yeah, one Teacher. There used to be 2 or 3 back in the day. So, I’d always you know, thought yeah that would be cool, I’d like to do that, but the timing didn’t work. Phil was Teacher, wasn’t going to move on so, think of something else. We were coming back from … we were on the way home from a long, long trip, 9 or 10 months. We had just sailed from South Africa; we were coming the long way round and I think it was a phone call actually. I phoned somebody, it must have been the Flotilla Captain or something and he said, “Congratulations, you’re going to be Teacher.” “What! Where’s Phil going?” “Oh, he’s been promoted.” “Oh, brilliant! Well done Phil” and he wanted to … they wanted to move him quickly so “that’s where you’re going next.” Ah, awesome, fantastic. Again, I think with these iconic roles, you know, Captain you have the same ‘oh, I’m going to be the Captain, I need to think about this.’ This isn’t something you just turn up and having not though about how you’re going to do it and the first few days and how, are you going to change anything, is there something you really want to do, is there something that throughout your career you’ve thought there’s a better way of doing it? And the same with Perisher, which is difficult because it’s such a long-standing well known Course which has been copied by many nations, hasn’t changed a huge amount in 100 odd years, it was never in my mind that anything needed changing from a structural perspective. There could be additions. We were starting to learn about coaching and mentoring and mental health and … no, not really mental health but we were trying to understand the needs of others better I think. You know we were getting better at looking after people, not just shouting at them. There’s always bits, bits of learning that have happened throughout the Navy and you think well that needs to be a part of this and you interact with the Surface Fleet and there’s a lot of hierarchy above you that need to understand what it is you’re going to do.
120 minutes 12 seconds
Simon: So, as Teacher you have the ability to fashion?
Jim: Yeah.
Simon: Ok.
Jim: I mean you’ve got to start backwards. You know when the Sea Phase is going to be because it always coincides with Joint Warrior. You know it’s a month long. Does it have to be a month long? Question, does it have to be done under Joint Warrior? Is there another way of doing it? And subsequently we found that not all the hostile Warships that we meet need to be British, They can be NATO. In fact, during my time, we didn’t have enough Warships so I had Royal Fleet Auxiliary Tankers turn up, for the first time, and those that had done Perisher will understand what I mean when it makes the Maths really hard because it just alters everything.
Simon: Right. Because it’s so much slower, right.
Jim: They’re slower, they’ve got a deeper draft. It blows the student’s head off, I mean genuinely. The problem with that of course, whilst I want to try and give that pressure, as Teacher you also have to do the Maths (laughs) so I did quite a lot … anyway that happened in my first Course and I didn’t get much warning on it so I did so some pretty rapid relearning of some of my Maths to make sure I could keep up with the students. Of course, they didn’t know it was happening so it just happened to them. So, the Course by that stage, Phil Titterton and I are good mates anyway. He’d done a huge amount of prep work for the next Course, which was about to start, and before that I had written with him. You always try and do that so you always try and … the Course he was in the middle of teaching, I joined him probably for the last couple of weeks of the Tactical Phase. I’d seen a little bit of eyes only with him before just to get my head in to how he ran that from the training perspective, and then the Sea Phase, not a requirement to be there for all of it but I definitely wanted to be there for the eyes only. Again, not because the Maths worried me but how does he order the ships to do what when and you know all the mechanics of it.
Simon: All the tricks that you can pull.
Jim: The mechanics of it. And the inshore weekends I wanted to see one of them. I think I only did one because there’s not much room. In fact, on our Perisher, we had the next Teacher on our Course, Paul Abraham and he was hilarious. Absolutely brilliant and brilliant to have another opinion actually in a de-brief to say, “Yeah, I agree with Teacher but I might have done it this way” or that way and whilst very similar characters, they were also very different. So, I did that with Phil, and then you know, took over and started planning the next Course.
Simon: And the planning is you working out what’s going to happen but also how you’re going to synchronise with the other ships. You’re talking to the Captains of the other ships at that point?
Jim: So, that’s why Teacher goes to sea, to learn, to watch the other Teacher do it and it’s not difficult, it’s just we’ve never seen it before. It literally is just picking up a radio and saying, “Actually can you go and do this?” It’s nothing more complicated than that.
Simon: So, you sneak off to a … I mean you can’t do it within the ears of the ..
Jim: You can do it quietly, but the Orders that need to be written to allow Warships and submarines and helicopters to operate in close proximity, have to be signed off at the appropriate level within Fleet Ops to say, “Yeah you can go and do that” ‘cos it’s potentially dangerous, and you’ve got to make sure there’s separation between the two and … they’re called Case Xs, a lot of serials need to be signed off so you’re planning those. For me I didn’t change any of the first Course, I knew what was going to happen on Day 1, I just had to tweak it and get the Orders out and get the Op Order printed and get it out to everybody ‘cos a lot of people … when was this? This was 2008, so we’re into 91 years of Perisher by then so …
Simon: Fairly well established (laughs).
Jim: Fairly well established and as Teacher of course there are some of the old Records that are there so you can see how it used to be run.
Simon: Goodness, that’s interesting.
Jim: Eyes only hasn’t changed and some of the actual documentation of how the Maths was developed, you could see from first principles how someone worked it out.
125 minutes 3 seconds
Simon: Little pencil notes in the margins.
Jim: Oh absolutely, little notebooks, pencil notes and stuff. So, it was a huge amount of pride ‘cos you’re now called Teacher, you’d been called Captain for 3 years for me, or Commander. Now it’s just Teacher, everyone calls you Teacher. “Teacher, first field down, Teacher.” It was brilliant. I loved it and your name badge even just says, ‘Teacher.’
Simon: Does it?
Jim: Yeah, you go and mix with your Surface Fleet counterparts and they call you Teacher. Everyone Calls you Teacher, which is nice. But you do quickly realise that’s there’s huge responsibility that sits under that name. You know, the planning of it, the execution of it great, fine, we can all do that , we’ve done that as Ops Officers years ago, so you do become a bit of an Ops Officer again. Then you realise that you are Teacher, not Assessor, Teacher. You’ve got to teach these guys, and it’s not … you shouldn’t have to be teaching them how to war fight, how to fight the submarine. You should be teaching them how to command, how to look after their people, how to take their crew with them. We tried to ensure that they understood what fatigue and tiredness does to an individual, particularly themselves, how their characters do or do not change under pressure and stress. Go to learn that there’s a lot of self-learning in this which is Teacher’s responsibility to draw that out and ensure that learning happens, to make them the very best Captains that they can be, because they’ve got to take 130 people with them. That’s the difference being in command. It’s the same in any command, but it’s amplified in a submarine ‘cos you can’t go away and ask somebody. You know if you’re covert, you’re not asking or being told by a Task Group Commander to go and do this, that and the other. You’re given the Orders months ago. ‘Go and do that’ and that’s great but you’ve got to understand what that means. You’ll understand what they mean by those Orders and how far you can go and only you know that as the Captain, but it’s a powerful thing to be told to ‘go and do that, we’ll see you in 3 months. Tell us how it went.’ Amazing. You try and instill that on the students very early on and they’ve all got different characters and it’s absolutely true, you’re being assessed from the minute, you know from their photograph, Day 1, bang, you’re being assessed. Straight away and you know I used to be the person, I don’t look at people’s uniforms and make a judgement, I found that you do. You know you just do, ‘Well he’s particularly smart and he’s particularly scruffy.’ Whether that means anything, probably not.
Simon: Does that mean anything, or is it just a mental note?
Jim: Probably not. It’s just interesting. You start to build a picture of course. If he hasn’t taken the effort on his shoes on Day 1 of Perisher, does that mean he doesn’t really care? ‘Cos for me I would have done, or if his caps is a bit skanky, this is Day 1 of Perisher, the pinnacle so far of your career, make an effort. That didn’t happen when I was Teacher, they all made an effort, but you see what I’m saying. You’re always making an assessment in some way of his character, of war fighting ability, how he tracks others, you know. So yeah, and it is about teaching and is about leadership. It’s trying to get your message across but also listen to what they have to say and try and help them understand, help them be the best Captain they can be. I mean absolutely help them pass the Course and be very open, very honest with them and I certainly was. If I was worried I’d tell them I was worried, I’d try point them in the right direction. Again, it’s leadership, a lot of this is leadership, a lot of it is personality driven. You know some people don’t have the personality to be able to lead in the way that I think you should.
Simon: I guess to a certain extent you’re putting your stamp of the way you want them to be.
Jim: But I’m not of course. Every Teacher, and I just said it, I’m trying to instil my knowledge on them. I’m not, I’m instilling the knowledge, by then, 91 years of Perisher. All the Captains, all the XOs that I’ve seen, all the experience that I’ve gained throughout my career, I’ve grabbed bits of that from the best and I’ve tried to change the bits I recognise that are the worst, all the way through. Especially in command, you realise quickly. ‘Oh, I’ve over egged that.’ I can remember in command, we’d come back from a run ashore, one particularly bad day I was on Patrol, everything was going wrong, from the Day 1 that 0800 brief to me in the morning was wrong. They were late calling me. I hated that. A slide didn’t work, I hated that. My coffee, someone spilt it. I mean tiny things but they all built up and I could feel myself, and I’m not an angry person, I’m certainly not a shouter. Oh my God, honestly and then the next thing happened and the next thing happened, and my Engineer, my MEO came in and told ne something and I just let go at him. I screamed at him and swore at him and immediately felt bloody awful. I thought ‘that was awful’ and I was shaking. I calmed down and went to see him and said, “I’m so sorry, that was completely uncalled for” so you take the good and the bad.
130 minutes 35 seconds
Simon: Is that why they select you as Teacher do you think ‘cos …
Jim: Well no one else knew that. I hadn’t told anyone.
Simon: … but they’ve seen you go through your career and as you describe, the best fits of people …
Jim: Also remember, you’ve got to be at the right place at the right time, so I didn’t think I would ever be Teacher ‘cos I knew Phil Titterton wasn’t moving. Well, that changed so I think I know who was in line but that didn’t work for him either. So, there’s usually somebody always … you pick a year, I certainly would in my last 6 years, I think I know what the succession looks like even now, will be for the next two or three Teachers, in my view. So, I’m sure there’s always been a view of ‘yep, he could do that.’ The people who appoint us will be saying, “Yeah I think he can go and do that and if it’s not him, then it’s him.” I mean the guy that should have took over from me ended up going to Australia and resigned, so someone got plucked out who actually didn’t want the job probably, he got thrown in. I mean last minute, there was no handover really, it was done, sorry mate. But he had a background of teaching and he’d had a really successful command and he was brilliant, you know, it worked.
So, there’s a bit of that. We had our Perisher 100 Reunion at Dartmouth in 2017 when I’d just taken over in Fas Flot. We had 340, somewhere like that Perisher qualified Officers at dinner. Heavy star camp there. There was Lord Boyce obviously a 5 star, loads of 4 stars, some real characters. Wow! You know, what a great … everybody that I spoke to after said it was an evening of half completed conversations ‘cos you always saw some … ‘oh, I’ve just go to talk to him.’
Simon: Right. I mean from what Chris was saying, there’s about 1000 people had passed Perisher.
Jim: Just over 1200 now.
Simon: 1200 now, ok. So that was … 300 people at that dinner was a big chunk of that.
Jim: Well of course all Teachers have to have passed so yeah, you’re right, and yeah, it’s a small number. Teachers are just about to hit the 70th ever. I think I’m 62. They started numbering them because they thought it would be fun. Yeah, so it is a huge responsibility, hugely exciting and of course the Boss … interestingly my Boss at the beginning, John Weale became my Boss again as the Admiral, as RASM. The first Perisher I’d ever seen I was a Navigator was his Course. He was on the plot with me so that’s how we first met and got on really well then. Amazing how careers … we’ve always had a touch point all the way though our careers. He was driving another ‘T’ boat when I was the XO of Talent, so I knew him then and so it goes …
Simon: So, what are the pressures that people don’t know about being Teacher?
Jim: I think it’s the understanding that again … there have been more than one incident during Perisher running from the loss of Antares to hitting the Isle of Skye pretty hard. There is stuff that happens and we have to put as many safeguards in place to ensure that doesn’t happen so we have navigation safety cells so a completely different cell which does just Navigation away from the students, for the Captain to make sure the Captain is content that he’s safe. You now have additional people that go to sea with Teacher to help him do the same thing. You know, the Captain is always in command. Teacher can take conduct so he can effectively becomes the Captain but ultimately he’s never the Captain so the Captain has to understand that if he’s not happy, he needs to jump in.
Simon: This is the Captain whose boat you’re on.
Jim: So, that’s a very important thing to get right and something I took a lot of time with the Captains that I was using their boats of to make sure they understood that and the way that we ran it when I was Teacher is that I took conduct for the whole month. It was just easier for me. For me it was easy. You’re the Captain, if you’re not happy, you need to tell me because if you say nothing, I’ve conduct, I can do whatever I want with your submarine, but let’s not forget ultimately in a Court Marshal, it’s your submarine, and you will be in as much trouble as me. So, that’s developed, that’s changed. There are now much more stringent rules as to who has conduct when and we just did what we thought was best for us. So, there’s that, things can go wrong, so you’ve got to be confident in your own ability. We’re trying to push the students as far as we can, but as Teacher you’ve got to be comfortable that you can go a little bit further than them because you need them to cross that line whilst ensuring that submarine and all those people remain safe. But you’ve got to get there, you’ve got to get there. Certainly, for me inshore weekends, the Captain and I were pretty much joined at the hip and I was asking him all the time. We were talking to each other all the time, “Are you happy?” “Yeah.” “Right, I’m going to get him to do this next, are you still happy?” “Yeah” “And this next 10 minutes is going to be intense so let’s you go over there and I’ll go over here and we’ll just make sure that we keep this boat safe but I want to test this student a little bit more” and there that, there’s definitely that, that you definitely feel the responsibility for the safety of the boat and of the people. You definitely understand that it’s difficult for the Ship’s Company, particularly where we did it. So, I became effectively their Captain for a month, but then they had another six Captains rotating maybe every 4 hours, maybe every 2 days which they have to react to in the same way as they would if their Captain was telling them to do something. And the Ops they are doing are intense, they’re tired, the Ship’s Company are tired. I guarantee you that every Course, the students will balls up the meal times and go to Action Stations when they shouldn’t ‘cos they haven’t thought about it and everyone’s out of bed for 24 hours and there was no requirement to do it but you’ve got to let them do that ‘cos they need to understand the Ship’s Company is going to react to this. So, as Teacher I used to go round and talk to them as much as I could and say, “Sorry about this, this is going to happen” and then you can engage them as well. I used to, you know, we talked about the sweepstake, we all know it happens, it probably happens today ‘cos by this stage you’re quite a senior guy. You know you’ve done your command and you’ve probably done it quite well otherwise you wouldn’t be Teacher, so you know a huge amount of those personalities onboard, especially the key Senior Rates, who you probably trust really implicitly if they’ve served you, particularly on the submarine you’ve commanded. I used to go and ask them all the time, “What do you reckon to him? Weakness spents, talk to me about it.” ‘Cos they’re all having those discussions.
Simon: And you can then formulate how you might test those things that they see as weaknesses.
Jim: Or let them know that how their actions are being felt. You know, this is the reaction you’re getting in the Messes to what you’ve just done, or the way you reacted to that individual. You don’t know it because you’ve never … there’s no reason you should, but I can, I can go and ask that bloke or ask that Mess, “What do you think to him, what’s his leadership style like? Would you go to war with him?” so quite often they go, “Oh, I’d go to war with him. I don’t particularly like him but I’d definitely go to war with him” or you go, “Oh, he’s a great bloke but I …” You’re trying for both, yeah, he understands us, he’s looking out for us, and we’re just talking war fighting here. You’ve also got to try and understand and teach them a bit about how to interact with their seniors, with Fleet Ops, so if Fleet Ops say, “I want you to go and do this and sail here and sail there and do that” you’ve got to be ready to say, “Hang on a sec, we’ve been constantly at sea, when’s the leave? When are we having a run ashore?”
Simon: There is the ability to question that then is there?
Jim: Definitely, and they should. You know they should absolutely look after their Ship’s Company. “We haven’t had a run ashore. Where’s my run ashore?” and more often than not, it’s already been thought of ‘cos funny old thing, the person further up the food chain is also an ex-Captain of a submarine and they’ll get it and mostly it’s because there aren’t enough boats around ‘cos there’s stuff going on. But nonetheless, you should still keep asking and try and look after your crew and get them home. They’ve got families to go home to, young kids. So, and I guess the other thing … I don’t think it surprised me, it surprised me how intense it was, was the lack of sleep. Ho, ho, especially the inshore weekends. Bloody hell, ‘cos on eyes only, actually I felt it for eyes only, you know as Teacher you’re looking through the Periscope all the time, I mean almost continuously and that takes it out on your eyes apart from anything else. It’s great fun, don’t get me wrong, it’s a privilege to be doing that, but very quickly you realise that you’re the only person that can see the truth and understand …
140 minutes 37 seconds
Simon: ‘Cos you know what’s coming as well.
Jim: Well yeah, and that can be a hindrance as well because if it doesn’t happen, and it does happen. You know you think well he should have turned by now. I’m going to wait because I don’t want to muck this up for the student and take the boat deep too quickly and hopefully the ship’s just a couple of seconds late and sure enough you can see it keel over and he’s going lovely. And sometimes you’ve just got to take the boat deep. The student hasn’t seen it either. Bang, I’ve got the submarine, down you go. So, I guess that the eyes-only bit you do realise you’re the only person looking. Your Captain can’t see it and of course after, certainly after the first Course I got more comfortable with how that works. You could let people have a quick look through the Periscope, even in the middle of the run say, “Come on, have a look at this. You’ve got one Warship both sides of you at 1000 yards, you can have a look” ‘cos you’ve got your own stopwatches running, you don’t have to look through the Periscope all the time, particularly if you really trust the guy, the student. You know towards the end of the thing, you think, ‘he’s got this, I’m happy’ and I know my own Maths, I’m safe not to look. But yeah, the tiredness, fatigue, in that final weekend which starts you know, it starts Friday afternoon and it finishes on Sunday night. Usually there are some lulls obviously.
Simon: So, that’s no sleep during that time?
Jim: No, there is some sleep. So, in the very quiet hours, 1 to 4 it’s usually a bit of reconnaissance work ‘cos the ships and the aircraft have got to go and do their own thing as well, not that I had much sympathy with the ships and aircraft at the time ‘cos we were bloody busy. So, you can’t be full whack all the time, and the Ship’s Company need to … can’t be going 110 % all the time, so it’s catnapping. I don’t think I got out of my uniform, certainly for 3 days. Just be ready. And again, it’s funny … we were talking about what’s it like to be told ‘Congratulations Teacher.’ It’s a very similar feeling, I think, as Teacher thinking ‘yeah, these are mine.’ A bit of me did that. Lots of pride, definitely and you feel what they’re feeling, and I guess there’s not many people that have seen it more than once, so it re-sparks the feelings that you had ..
Simon: Your memories of having … right.
Jim: Oh definitely, and when you start talking about it and your Perisher, every person that’s Perisher qualified talks about their Perisher. That’s probably before their Command actually ‘cos it’s such a unique thing.
Simon: And of course you’ve seen the reaction as Teacher of you presenting the champagne and their relief slash …
Jim: Absolutely, you can see it, you can absolutely see it. It’s a lovely thing, it really is and then particularly on the boat going back on the mobile phones telling their wives and their mums and dads and there’s often tears there and where they’re going, of course they know where they’re going and what they’re going to be doing.
Simon: And conversely, when you have to make the decision for somebody who hasn’t performed as necessary, what’s that like a Teacher?
Jim: Horrible. And you know it’s coming.
Simon: You can’t not do it.
Jim: You can’t not do it. You have a responsibility to the rest of the Service, and to the individual. I was lucky in that those that I failed, when I told them, also had that look of relief, the very same look as ‘Congratulations Captain.’ It was over.
Simon: Wow. Right.
Jim: Yeah, “Thanks Teacher, I knew I couldn’t do it” or “Yeah, I’m glad it’s over” or “It’s not for me.” I was lucky, I’m sure some have gone, “Oh bloody hell, I thought I was going to pass that.” No, didn’t happen. I mean you give them a fair warning all the time. You’re talking to them everyday and particularly if someone’s struggling, you know every Teacher will take them to one side, away from everyone else, saying, “Right, come on, I want you to do this, that and the other. Are you alright? Do you still want to do this?” ‘cos sometimes you see a dip and you think um, is this someone who just doesn’t want to take themselves off the Course and is waiting for me to do it?’ so that’s the conversation I used to have. “Are you alright? Do you want to do this?” and if he answers, “Yeah, I absolutely do” then great, brilliant. Ok, I know that we’ve got some teaching to do here and that’s thrill. When you see that work. I’m not going to name names, but I’ve seen that work. I’ve absolutely seen that work. It was a confidence thing, but he was so keen to do it. I mean it was his life, it was his thing, it was his world.
145 minutes 40 seconds
Simon: Almost too much … putting too much pressure on himself.
Jim: 100% and I said, “You’re doing this to yourself” and that’s a very good point actually, I probably should have said that when we were doing Perisher. Self-induced pressure is huge. It’s almost all self-induced. You know, Teacher’s looking at you, he’s there, but you think that he’s making a decision. You think … it’s that psychological warfare, so when you understand that as Teacher, you can just stand there, not smile. You know I’m a smiling guy. No, don’t smile, just stare at him, see what happens, you know and they’re inducing that pressure to themselves. Definitely, that self-induced pressure is all about the importance of the Course, the fact that you don’t want to fail it and I think it’s still a pass-fail Course. Now you can have another bite of the cherry in the Tactical Phase, we might get to the stage where you can have another bite of the cherry at the Sea Phase. I would be staggered if a student that’s failed Perisher would go back and do it again, because if they would, I just can’t see it happening.
Simon: Because they know the pressure they’ve been through.
Jim: So the guys that I had, they said, “No, I don’t want to do it. I can’t do it, I don’t what to do it.” “Would you come back again?” “No, I can’t do it, it’s not for me.” Would their personality change in that time? No, it wouldn’t. Would their knowledge of Warfare change? No, it wouldn’t, because it should already be there. Yes, maybe if their leadership style changed, maybe. I just don’t see it happening, I don’t. There are some people it just gets to; you can do it or you can’t. From my Course and some of the guys that didn’t get through when I was Teacher, you know they’re Oxbridge Graduates. It’s not about brains, it’s one of those things, it really is. Can you do it or not? Do you want to do it or not? And if you understand that you maybe can’t do it like you thought you could, then you make your own mind up. And for me, on every Course you lose some but I had a couple walk that said, “No, I don’t want to do this.” That was quite hard actually because both of them I think would have passed.
Simon: Really?
Jim: Yeah, I really do. They made their decisions themselves for very valid reasons. Both of them were slightly different reasons, but they were very valid. “I’ve just been thinking about being an XO, I just don’t want to do it. I want to do the Course, I’m glad I’ve been on it, I want to experience it but it’s not for me, and rather than get to the end and pass and then say I don’t want to do it anymore is unfair.” He was really grown up about it and fine. And another guy was struggling a bit and really came good. I mean he was definitely going to pass, and said, “No, I’m done.”
Simon: It seems amazing after all of that build up, all of that time and the intensity of Perisher, to then come to the decision at that point, but perhaps that’s when the veil lifted?
Jim: I think there’s a bit of that. I think what we all forget in this is that there’s a human life involved here and it’s not all about the Navy. You know, you get to Perisher just at the time when you are probably married, you’ve probably got small children, you’re probably starting to think about ‘what am I going to do with my life? I’ve been so focussed on Perisher, I’ve seen what a XO does, I’ve seen what a Captain does’ and then you’re probably going to sit behind a desk. Do I want to do that? So, everyone has these moments throughout their career and I think Perisher becomes a bit of a catalyst for that, so for me and my guys on my Course, we were all absolutely locked into being Captains of submarines. But there are others that are still having that ‘Oh, if I do pass, there’s every chance I’m going to be a Captain of a submarine. Is that what I really want to do? With my young family, and I want more kids and I want stability.’ Um, changes. So, you know absolutely that is all a part of it as well. Lulu and I were married, had been married a while by then … sorry, we hadn’t been married long by the time so Perisher for me, ’99, so 4 years, hadn’t had Henry yet so that pressure for me wasn’t really there, but all of the others on my Course had kids already. I think that’s right, yeah. So, there’s those pressures that you don’t necessarily realise, either when you’re on Course with your students with the rest of your Perisher, or Teacher although by the time you get to Teacher you realise that there’s more to life than the Navy and this Course, but yeah, it’s difficult losing a student. I never had the nerve to sit someone down with a glass of whiskey, I just felt that was a little too brutal. I don’t think it happened nowadays. We still put a bottle in their bags so they can have a drink on the way back. And nowadays of course you can have a second bite of the cherry during the Tactical Phase so if someone is not showing the Warfighting capability or their knowledge isn’t quite where it should be, then I agree with that. That’s ok, off you go, you’re not ready. 6 months, come back in 6 months, and again at the Sea Phase I can’t see anyone ever going, “I’ll try that again.” It’s brutal. You know, would I want to do it again? No, I wouldn’t. I enjoyed it, I really did enjoy it but I wouldn’t want to do it again, especially if I knew my career is at risk at the end of it. But no, being Teacher absolutely fascinating job.
151 minutes 59 seconds
Simon: What changes did you bring in?
Jim: I didn’t bring a huge amount of change into it. I was in the unfortunate place, we had availability problems then so I only did 1 Course a year which was less intense for me.
Simon: It’s availability of candidates?
Jim: Of boats and candidates, mostly candidates actually ‘cos there’s no point in putting people on the Course if they’re not ready, absolutely no point in it. They’re valuable, and they’ve been trained. They’ve been in for years and we’ve invested a lot of time and money and in to developing these people so if they’re not ready … and actually the guys coming through nowadays, they’re pretty grown up about it. If they don’t think they’re ready, they’ll usually say, “I really want to go on the next Course” so, those discussions happen. I just can’t see anyone saying, “Yeah, I’ll put myself through that hassle again thank you very much.” You know I think every couple of years Teacher gets asked, you know, money’s hard, the Navy’s skint, do we have to do this at sea? And we kind of go, “Yep, we do, we really do. It has to be done at sea” and until you’ve seen it, that’s why we get some VIPs in you think who could be in those positions to be asking those questions, to understand that you can’t … simulators are great these days, they really are really good but nothing is the same as doing it at sea, so I didn’t change much as I said. We only had 1 Course a year, we started to involve the Dutch more, and I used to ride the Dutch Course ‘cos they were running at a different … they were running 2 Courses so I’d go and help their Teacher …
Simon: I was going to say, what did you do when you’re not …
Jim: … who brilliantly was on my Perisher and was also Teacher, Richard. Absolutely brilliant so we were really good mates so we used to help each other out. I used to help him out. He used to come over and help me out in the Trainer, and I used to go to sea with him occasionally and see his students and he’d do the same for us. We started to understand that you didn’t … there were opportunities to complete the Sea Phase without Joint Warrior, so in different parts of the world you maybe use … go into Fjords and do some eyes only up there with Norwegians and Dutch. It becomes more disjointed. I don’t think any Teacher would choose not to do a proper, you know, eyes only inshore weekend deep water for 2 weeks, back inshore weekend and Perisher Breakfast that way, but needs must. Submarines are a scarce commodity and are required to be everywhere at once, and they can’t be. So, by virtue of the fact that having said all that and we don’t have many submarines now, that it’s still in the schedule that it’s that important that Fleet Ops give a nuclear submarine for 2 months of the year for Teacher to go and train these people was testament to the importance it’s given to it. I think, you talk to the Ship Drivers, certainly in my generation that came through that they get it. You know they say, “Oh we wish we had something like that” because it’s not something you can replicate too easy in a ship I don’t think. So, it has been changed a few times and it got changed back. It did change under a couple of Teachers briefly, a lot of it came back in. There’s a lot more in the definitely now coaching, mentoring, mental awareness, mental health and wellbeing definitely, understanding other’s D & I, oh absolutely a lot of that ‘cos you know we’ve been in areas not very good in some of those areas, so looking after our humans better, definitely is a big focus. Understanding human factors better, so we get … and this was one of the Captains of Sea Training that started it, with a Teacher actually that came after me, decided to build a relationship with British Airways Pilots to do their Human Factors Training.
Simon: What is Human Factors mean?
Jim: Human Factors, well it’s the human part of leadership isn’t it? It’s understanding what is affecting the individual at any given time. How does pressure make people behave I guess. There’s much more to it than that but there’s a huge amount to learn from other places, so Airline Pilots, you know, they’re not going to fight a war but they’ve got 300 or more people sitting behind them and they have their lives in their hands and when it goes wrong, what do they do? We have some great discussions and oil and gas, surface guys as well. There’s lots to be learned, so we’re getting better at understanding the human better. And that’s a Navy thing, that’s not just a submarine thing because we have to do everything that we can, so yeah in that side but from a Warfighting perspective, your kits changed, how are we going to go out and deliver it is the same. You know someone from the very early submariner days only had a Periscope, a piece of paper and a pencil, could still come onboard an Astute Class and well he couldn’t use a Periscope but a piece of paper and a pencil, bit of mental Maths, still the same. What you’re trying to achieve is the same, when you’re trying to put a submarine in a certain position, that’s the same. Technology’s moved but yeah …
Simon: Do you want to take a break now, or shall we go onto the next bit?
Jim: No, crack on.
Simon: So, what happened after … you said 3 years as Teacher.
Jim: So, yeah, we’ve missed my drive so I went to drive Sceptre. So, what happened after … so I was XO of Talent 3 years. Wasn’t supposed to be 3 years, we broke down, two fairly major repairs. Actually, it worked for me because I was so junior that was good, so I had 3 years in there, great fun, great crew, I mean really grateful. Then I went into Fleet Ops which was fantastic and it’s at that stage where you think during that first shore job after your XO’s tour is when you think, when am I going to get promoted, when am I going to become a Commander and drive my own submarine, and that’s where I was definitely. I was at that stage. Alright this is going to happen, my Reports telling me it’s going to … and it did and actually I was lucky ‘cos there were 5 of us. Two of us were on the same Perisher but all mates, all on the same Signal once a year, same Signal and again brilliantly it’s made into an event. You know what day it’s going to come. It used to be done by Signal. It’s done by bloody email, online, it’s rubbish. I mean truly rubbish because the Seniors don’t get the opportunity to put everything in place because a bloody email gets sent to them. That is wrong. Anyway, in my day it was done by Signal. The Signal was released to the general public or to the rest of the Navy at 10 o’clock. The Seniors got it at 9 o’clock. They usually got a nod the day before and the Admiral at the time, Kilgour, was FOSM, ‘Chuckles’ Kilgour, top bloke, was my Boss, was the Admiral, and my phone in my office which is quite a secure office went off at about 9 o’clock saying “Jim, can you get your arse up here. Bring the Classified Briefcase with you. Come up the back stairs, I need to have a chat with you.” I thought, “Ah shit, I’m not on the Communications Signal.” I thought he was getting me out of the way so he could say congratulations to everyone else. I was wrong. And the Case, I went to see my Boss and said, “Have you got the Suitcase, the Admiral wants it?” “You need to get up there now”. Oh, that’s heavy. So, it’s pretty heavy and I walked up and I walked into his office and it was quite similar to Perisher. I walked in and there’s a load of champagne glasses out. He’s on the phone. ”I’ve got the Briefcase for the Admiral” And the Captain was there, DACOS Ops was there and he went, “Give me the Briefcase” and he put the passcodes in, click, click opened up and 2 bottles of champagne. He couldn’t be assed to bring them up himself, so I brought my own champagne and then the guy that worked next to me, he was on the same Signal, he was the next one in and then another guy and five of us were Submariners so … I mean what a lovely way to do it. Again, you just don’t forget those moments. And then you’ve got to wait a week or two to find … so you know you’re going to be a Commander; you don’t know if you’re going to be in command. As Submariners you kind of do ‘cos we need all of them, but you’ve still got to wait, and you’ve got to wait to find out what you’ve got. So, a couple of weeks later I got told what I was getting, it was Sceptre. It’s the boat I wanted. I knew what it was going to go and do, which I really wanted to go and do and I went there and had 3 years there.
161 minutes 27 seconds
Simon: And do you get to request the boat?
Jim: You can ask. I don’t think it …
Simon: You may or may not.
Jim: It’s nice to match up where you want to go but I definitely wanted that boat ‘cos you know what’s available and you know when the COs are due to go, so I knew it was available and more importantly I knew what it was going to do because I was involved with the planning in that job.
Simon: That’s something you can’t talk about, is what you were doing.
Jim: No, so we were in a fairly big maintenance period so it was a kind of a year of it and intense work up and then the Ops was almost a year. And that was at that stage where I was told I was going to be Teacher, so that’s how that happened. I did 3 years as Teacher really because we were only doing 1 Course a year then, so how are we going to train the next bloke if there’s a gap? So, let’s wait until there’s 2 Courses a year and then do it that way, so I wasn’t particularly happy, I wanted to move on. I was happy at being Teacher. It’s one of those jobs that as bit like Command, you’re desperately sorry to leave it but when you look behind you, you go (blows raspberry) I didn’t f**k it up. Everyone’s still alive. It’s like Commanding a submarine for a second time, it takes a certain amount, a certain sort of person to do that. I’d love to do that but you do have to think, well I did well the first time, I hope I can do … everyone expects you to be better the second time. It happens more and more now. We’ve got lots of people who want to do that and that’s brilliant, I’m really pleased that that’s the case. So, I did 3 years and as I say it nearly became 4 because the guy that should have relieved me resigned fairly quickly. He had a better offer. Great mate of mine. When I talked about the maisonettes at the beginning, he was my neighbour and we’re still huge friends, and he’s out in Oz, and Andy Bower had to come in at short notice. So, then the [inaudible] Ops bit and then in Command so I knew it was going to be long Command. I wanted 3 years. I thought 3 years was probably going to be about right for me. I never saw my career … I thought I could be a Captain but that was it for me. I think people in their own minds think, “Well maybe I could an Admiral.” I was never there. I was never maybe I could be an Admiral. I want to be a 4 ring Captain in the Submarine Service, I don’t want to go outside the Submarine Service although I’d been tempted for a Defence Engagement Attaché work because I’d had a sniff of that which is coming later actually after my Teacher job, so 3 years in there, and then I went to the Ministry of Defence as International Engagements, so doing maritime International Engagements with I would say the most important … the five highest nations and France who were becoming more and more important with regards to Carrier Operability and Nuclear, and Russia at the time actually. We were trying to be more friendly with Russia so they were also on my shop chit. Hugely fascinating job. Completely different, all about relationships, all about people again. Yeah, loved it. Ministry of Defence, again a little worried going into there, having never really had a desk job. I’d been a Trainer, I’d taught the Advanced Warfare Course, I’d taught Teacher and I’d been a Planner but all submarine orientated. This was not submarine specific, yes it involved submarines but it was the whole Navy. Working for the First Sea Lord who was Admiral Stanhope, who was a Submariner, ex Teacher who ironically I’d worked for as a sub-Lieutenant when he was a Commander in the MOD, way, way back. Even then we knew he was going to be a First Sea Lord by the way. That was fascinating. Lots of travel, lots of fun, living in London, brilliant.
165 minutes 39 seconds
Simon: You get a different view, a far bigger overview of what’s going on I guess.
Jim: Absolutely. You are taken out of your comfort zone of submarines, and bearing in mind as I just said, I wanted to stay as a Submariner, but this was a Submariner’s tag job at the time, it’s not now. Because of those countries, most of them operated submarines and particularly the America piece, the France piece was important. So yeah, gave a much, much broader overview. Great learning experience. I had not done a Staff Course; I never did a Staff Course and often that precludes you from going into the Ministry of Defence in the first place because it’s a tick you’ve got to have. Not everyone can do it, it’s not big enough, and I was lucky enough to go in, so pretty intense learning process, but again great people, a new bunch of people and not just from the Navy. Really, really interesting. Politicians, understanding that bit, being in the centre of Whitehall. Yeah, fascinating.
Simon: What’s it like working with the other Services then?
Jim: It was good fun. We were on the 5th floor. On one side of the 5th floor of the MOD you’ve got the Politicians, the Chief of Defence staff and the Vice Chief and the other side you’ve got Service Chiefs. The Navy was in the middle, the RAF at one end, Army at the other end. Pretty much matched, so the jobs that were in one are matched at either end so you got to know the other guys in International Engagement, the other two areas and got on really well with them. We used to share notes and ideas and what the country was like ‘cos you used to have to give a brief to the Admiral or whoever the VIP was that you were preparing to have these discussions, so the background. It really helped, so it was good, it was fascinating and took me a little bit out of the submarine world. By then I’d been in Command, so I did 3 years there and I was starting to get itchy feet and question what next? Was I going to get promoted? I’d been a Commander for 9 years by then, so 3 in Command, 3 as Teacher and 3 there, which is quite a long time. Thinking maybe it’s not going to happen? Maybe this is it? So, I did have, as I said at the beginning, there are times in everyone’s career, you have a little look around. Quick all-round look at the rest of society and what actual real people are doing and stop doing this bit and go and do something else. So, I did have a little look round and I spoke to loads of people, again all these fabulous COs and XOs that I worked for and with over the years who many were still friends and mentors. People I could go to and ask questions and I’d been told for a few years, look it’s going to happen and funny enough I’ve said it in my last job, it’s not if, it’s when. I don’t know what the quota is this year, I don’t know what the requirement is this year, some will be lucky, some won’t, how close were you, I don’t know so you don’t find out and it turns out. And it was the same in the last job, “Sorry mate, you were really close 3 years in a row. It’s unlucky but that’s what it is. You’ll definitely get there” and for me that was the Rank that I wanted. So, to get there was the thing, it wasn’t the speed. I could have argued because I’m not there now, I can’t get to Admiral. Well, I knew I wasn’t going to get to Admiral so why worry about it, but I did want to be a 4 ring Captain Submariner. I wanted to be Captain Sea Training or Captain of one of the Submarine Squadrons. I think then there were 5 or 6 Submarine Captains tag jobs that I wanted to do. Or one called DACOS Ops which is Deputy Assistant Chief of Staff Operations, so basically running the day-to-day Fleet out of here. That’s the one I .. I said, “I want to be Sea Training as a Captain, then DACOS Ops and then I’ll leave the Navy because I think doing that final job would be incredible.” So had the discussions, didn’t happen, and the year that it didn’t happen I was told, “Ok hasn’t happened but you were genuinely really close this time. We’re going to move you out of the MOD and we’ll give you a role that we can easily extract you from” which was the Commanding Officer of the Royal Navy’s Presentation Team, so going around the country giving presentations, brilliant fun. Very small team, very well supported from a product perspective. Lots of good coaching actually as to how to do that, and travel around the country doing my own thing really. Yeah, great fun.
170 minutes 33 seconds
Simon: So who were you presenting to then?
Jim: It wasn’t a recruitment tool, it’s really just an information … trying to get our brand out to the wider community, so I did used to go and talk to Universities, that’s probably from an educational perspective as low as we got. Some Political Groups, you know, big business.
Simon: So people understood the importance of the Navy.
Jim: Yeah, we’d give them an overall view in 20-30 minutes of what the Navy did for them as tax payers. That’s what we were there to do. Very slick presentation, very, very nicely tied together with external help, you know, high quality video and it was quite a nice thing to be able to stand in front of ‘cos of course they thought we’d written it. We hadn’t, we just spoke it. We helped write it but everything else was there, so that was fun. Half-way through that I was going to get promoted by then, I’d been told, but there wasn’t a job. So, I knew who was Captain Sea Training, timing didn’t work. DACOS Ops. I knew DACOS Ops wasn’t going to work. In fact, it was Phil Titterton who I took over as Teacher. Wasn’t going to happen, wasn’t available, etc etc . I thought I’m not going to say no if I don’t get a submarine job, I’ll go and do that and then go back. Funny old thing, I’m lucky. I get a phone call out of the blue from who was then COM Ops, the Admiral, saying, “I want you to be DACOS Ops.” I said, “But Phil’s DACOS Ops.” “He’s just been promoted.” It’s happened again, “and you’re available now so we’re going to promote you a bit early and off you come.” Oh, bloody hell, and again that’s another big job. You think, ooh, that’s a big step up as a newly promoted Captain. Usually that’s a second or third job cap. This is why I wanted to do it last in my career. I thought, oh, that’s an ask and that part was the Admiral. He said, “Jim” and I’d known him well, “this is really tough. I’ll give you 3 months to settle in and then I’m going to start taking names.” Oh ho and did he. Yeah, great learning experience but wow! Intense, fabulous, it’s one of those seat of your pants jobs, it’s all about decision making. You have to sit there and write long papers about stuff, it’s about doing, you know, directing. Brilliant, brilliant fun. Intense, consistently on the phone. My missus didn’t particularly enjoy me being DACOS because “Oh I’m sorry, I’ve got to go back to work” you know, something happens.
Simon: What does it mean then? What is the role of …?
Jim: You’re running the Fleet on behalf of … for the Admiral.
Simon: All of the submarines.
Jim: And the Surface Fleet, all of it. It’s now done by the Surface Fleet guy ‘cos we’ve now got a Commodore that helps Com Ops. Com Ops is still a Submariner.
Simon: So, you’re then deciding … is it you’re deciding the Missions or you’re deciding …?
Jim: No, the day-to-day running. So, the Missions are done by another Captain, DACOS Plans or it was commitments back then, another great mate, in fact two great mates who were there for that. So, they did the Planning, I did the Execution, and really it was you know, reacting to the real-world events. Reacting to requests for Forces, you know something happens in a country, do we react to it, do we not react to it. I wouldn’t be the person that would make the decision, the Politicians would make the decision and others within the office would write the paperwork to support that process, but when the nod came back down the pipe, it would be my team that would day, “Right, get that ship to go there now, we’ll brief them on the way.” Brilliant fun, really, really good, really good and because of the job, if the Admiral was out of town’ you’d kind of take over the responsibilities that he had for Operational Control or maybe even Operational Command of the Fleet, which again is one of these things you go, “Christ!” That’s an amazing responsibility to have been given. I can remember it happening to me and I ended up having to phone the 1st Sea Lord up direct for something. You know, wow!
Simon: Right.
175 minutes 7 seconds
Jim: And then of course that caused a problem for me because I’d already made the decision, this was my last and I thought ‘do I want now to go and be Sea Training having done what I considered the pinnacle of my career, what I wanted to do or is this another moment?’ I go, ‘Umm’ so I said, “Yep, ok it’s a moment” and “more than a moment, I’m going to go” so I told everyone. Those people that listened and read this who know me will go, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course you did” but this genuinely happened. I was going, you know, I was making waves to go, I was about to basically 7 clicks to freedom on the computer to say I’m going.
Simon: Oh is that how many … going through an online form is it?
Jim: It is yeah, 7 clicks to freedom, and I’m told the 1st Sea Lord he was down occasionally, he said, “You’re going” I said, “Yeah, I’m definitely going” and it was a few weeks later they’d just changed how the … they’d put a new Admiral in up in Scotland who was Admiral Weale, John Weale again who had become ACNS(SM), so Assistant Chief of Naval Staff Submarines, to have a much broader view and responsibility of the whole Submarine Service. Great, so after the demise of the FOSM, Flag Officer Submarines, we hadn’t had that. We’ve had RASM which is Rear Admiral Submarines which is almost a figurehead, no real levers to pull, no monetary ability to help and no other real responsibilities. ACNS(SM), Admiral Weale, out of Faslane did and he was in the right place at the right time. 1st Sea Lord at the time just happened to be in Northwood again said, “I hear you’re going outside” I said, “Yes.” He said, “You’re not.” I said, “I am Sir. “He said, “You’re not, I’ve got the perfect job for you.” I said, “You haven’t, I know all the jobs and this is what I want.” He said, “Well, ok.” I said, “Sir if you have, you need to tell me what it is because I’m going, I’m literally this week going.” He went, “Ok, I want you to be the Commodore in Faslane.” “But I’ve only just … I’m 18 months in as a Captain.” “Yep, do you want it or not? “Umm, ok, I’ll have that, yeah” (laughs). That changed my mind pretty quick. Again, phoned Lulu up and went, “You know I was going to go? I’ve got this incredible opportunity. I want to do it, are you happy?” Of course, she said yes and that’s how that happened. So, that happened quickly, you know, 2 years I was a Commander and then 2 years later I was a Commodore, having been DACOS Ops in the middle, which was brilliant and it felt like going home, back to Faslane, dealing with the front line, on the waterfront with the Captains, with the XOs, trying to make a difference with the people at a time where it was mad. Sea time still mad.
Simon: Mad as in …?
Jim: We haven’t got enough boats for the political requirement for submarines and that’s well recognised. What’s not well recognised is the ability to say, “No” in some areas in the MOD. The answer should be “No, they’re knackered, they can’t do this, sorry, we don’t want them, they’re going” so that’s been for a number of years now, not fair on our people, so that’s what we … and of course Johnny Weale was up there. He said, “We need to look after our people better” and a lot of people were going outside at that time so we took a … we didn’t get it all right, we absolutely didn’t, we scratched the surface definitely but trying to educate others as to what it is, the pressures that we’re under and the families in particular. Look after the families better than we had done. All the way through my career we’ve said, “Yes, families are important.” “Yeah, we know but prove it.” So, we tried to put some things in place to do that and that’s how black dolphins came about. Black cap covers came out, bit more recognition, there was a bit more money being thrown around. Ultimately we need more boats. Submariners that go outside generally don’t go outside because they don’t love being Submariners. They go outside ‘cos they’re knackered. There are family pressures that, “Sorry, you’re working them too hard” so that was fascinating and I was initially put up there for the 3 years and again I was with Johnny Weale who when I was Teacher was my Boss then and then actually he was relieved by Paul Halton who was a Perisher buddy of mine so yeah, it’s very incestuous. So, we brought the gang back together in some areas there and then latterly when I was up there, so I did end up doing 6 years, Bob, who was another Perisher buddy of mine became Naval [inaudible] Commander. So, initially there for 3 years, then they said, “Can you do 5?” which I said, “Yes” and then Covid hit and they said, “Can you do 7” and I went, “Yeah, ok.” I got to 6 and if I’m honest, 5 was enough. 5 was the sweet spot. I think that’s a great role to put someone in for a longer period of time, to actually understand, not just understand and try to put in place but deliver something.
180 minutes 38 seconds
Simon: Because the amount of time it takes to make those changes.
Jim: Yeah it takes bloody years to some things, so that’s quite useful you know, and also quite frustrating, ‘cos when it doesn’t go right, you know …
Simon: Despite the best planning.
Jim: Yeah, I mean after 6 years I still haven’t managed to get that right. Anyway, I realised it was time to go so …
Simon: So, what were your role … what was a day-to-day look like when you’re doing that then?
Jim: So, as Commander of the Flotilla, it’s a very interesting role ‘cos it’s quite difficult to define. So, the Flotilla Commander, so you’re in charge of the boats and the people within the boats that make up the Flotilla and the Flotilla is all submarines whether they’re here or in Devonport or in Barrow from a people perspective whilst they didn’t have a boat. The levers you have to pull to make things different , I had no money, my budget was very, very, very small so really it’s about trying to educate others and with the ACNS …
Simon: Others outside the submarine.
Jim: Inside the submarines, inside the Navy.
Simon: Ok the Navy but not submarines.
Jim: To describe what needed to be fixed and with Admiral Weale on the Clyde as ACNS(SN) with some of those levers and a lot of the money, he was able to do that. So, that worked quite nicely. You know we could be seen that we were at least trying and in some areas actually delivering stuff. So yeah, there was a lot of day-to-day stuff, so disciplinary stuff, looking after the humans, the individuals. I thought I’d seen everything as a Captain in Command. I was wrong, you know amazing, sailors being sailors and trying to understand and navigate your way through that and in my time unfortunately there was a lot of Press involvement with stuff going on around the world that has the wors submarine in it which tends to get Red Top’s attraction more quickly than in some other areas you know. Royal Marines have a similar problem. Trying to brief up and know what the actual truth is because not everything printed in the Red Top is true. I’m sure we will all agree.
Simon: Shocking! (laughs).
Jim: Bit then it’s submarines and you can’t say a lot and we never comment. That was one of the frustrations. Why can’t we just comment? Deny it, say, “No” and they all say, “Well you’re just denying it ‘cos you’re the Submarine Service.” There’s a Catch 22, so there’s a bit of that is going right back to the beginning, is opening up a little bit more about what the Submarine Service is and the characters within it and what it is we do and the families and how important that is. Without our families, we’re nothing, it just won’t happen. The amount of sacrifice that our families go through over a course of a career. Without the support, you can’t do it. It’s impossible and as I said we’ve always known that but we haven’t recognised it or recognised it and not done anything about it and we’re still a long way from doing enough.
Simon: And while you were in there, that was one of the things you …
Jim: That was one of the things and of course it changed again when under yet another transformation. We got rid of a lot of 2 star Admiral roles within Navy Command and across the board and the decision was taken to de-enrich all the Heads of Fighting Arm so …
Simon: What does that translate to?
Jim: So, the Heads of Fighting Arm are Commandant General Royal Marines, RASM, Rear Admiral Submarines, Rear Admiral Surface Ships, Rear Admiral Aviation, and Commodore of the RFA and I guess that’s the normal five and you’ve got Commodore of the Reserves as well.
Simon: And what was the de-enriching …
Jim: De-enriching from Admiral to Commodore.
Simon: Does that mean taking someone down a Rank then?
Jim: No it meant giving the job to somebody else and so Admiral Weale’s job, when he left after nearly 5 years again, he wasn’t replaced and a lot of what he did was heaped onto his Deputy who was a Commodore and his Head of Fighting Arm role came to me, as a Commodore, which is a lovely title to have. It’s like a Teacher thing, Head of the Fighting Arm. Who the hell doesn’t want to be the Head of the Submarine Service? But, with that is quite a lot of responsibility and when you realise you have no levers, you’re not really. You’re a figurehead. You’re opening schools and shaking hands. It’s that sort of role but there is a lot of family in it. You can do something in that area. You can at least try and make sure people understand what it is and the view at the time was brilliant. He said, “What do we need to do?” I said, “Well there is little things that you can do. Black cap covers. A bit more recognition. Get paid well. Can we have black caps?” He went, “Yeah alright then.”
185 minutes 49 seconds
Simon: What’s the relevance of the black cap then?
Jim: Well, I wanted to ensure there was still recognition. Dolphins were recognised and it wasn’t about the Surface Fleet getting and equivalent. The Surface Fleet though ‘Oh you’re doing this because we’ve got our set of dolphins.’ It absolutely wasn’t. We were running out of things we could do. What can you do to help the human, to try and make their lives better, to try and make them feel special? So, we did a little bit of a straw pole and we said, “That was cool wasn’t it, back in the ‘40s and black caps, and it’s practical and it’s something we’ve always talked about in my career.” “Why have we got a white cap cover on a submarine? It’s bloody ridiculous. It’s not practical apart from anything else.” And most people said, “Oh, that’s a good idea, let’s do that” and 1st said, “Yeah ok, we can do that” We were helped by the 2nd Sea Lord at the time being Nick Hine and a badge wearing Submariner who also loved the idea. We did it and it was done too quickly, however, and it wasn’t funded properly and we had a bit of a backlash ‘cos we didn’t have … I don’t think there is still a supply route that is free, you have to go and buy them or just dye them yourself or spray paint your cap. I think it looks brilliant, I think it’s good, most people that I talk to think it’s a good idea. Some of the more senior cohort would disagree but as I said with the black dolphins it was the same. It’s not about the senior cohort actually, it’s about the people, we’re trying to look after them. Not look after those of you that retired 20 years ago, sorry. It’s not about you anymore. You can have an opinion but if your opinion isn’t going to increase retention or recruitment then ok, great, fine I’m not going to do anything about that. If black caps make a difference and make people talk about the Submarine Service, brilliant and it helps recruiting and retention, then we should do it. Black dolphins was a similar thing and there were a few other things that we tried to do. We tried to build this Submarine Family Initiative and bring the organisations that exist together. It’s taken 6 or more years to get there. We’re at a point now where we know what it is we want to do. We’ve now got to go and do it and deliver it. It a thing that exists. Not enough Submariners know about it so this is a good way getting that message across. Join the Submarine Family and share our stories. Share what it is that we do and love and are proud to have done. So, then last couple of years as Head of the Service were fascinating. Got me to meet Prince William quite a few times and talk to him. ‘Cos he’s our Commodore in Chief and Admiral Weale used to go down and brief him, so I took that responsibility on and have a one to one with him for half an hour every 6 months and invite him up to Memorial unveiling. Another thing we managed to get done. That was nothing to do with me, that was another group of Submariners that got that together and made it happen. Again, brilliant for us as a community to have somewhere to go to remember.
Simon: A focal point.
Jim: I don’t know if you’ve seen it. It is the most remarkable …
Simon: I’ve seen photos, it’s fantastic.
Jim: We were lucky with the weather, it was an amazing day, absolutely amazing day with one of the most amazing poems read by a Submariner’s son called, ‘This is normal for me.’ It’s on some web sites. Gets every Submariner’s eyes going, it’s very relevant. Yeah, it’s been difficult in the last few years and Covid was particularly difficult for Submariners. Everyone thought we were the world record holders, Olympic gold standard at isolating. Nothing could be further … I ended up getting quite annoyed about it actually as Head of the Service. No, you’re wrong. We’re the world record holders and world champions at being isolated in groups of 130. Put us on out own and we are awful ‘cos we’re not used to it.
Simon: Right.
Jim: We are used to being isolated from the outside world, not isolated with other humans. It’s just completely alien. It’s the other way round for Submariners. We’re used to being …
190 minutes 5 seconds
Simon: Right, being together in such an intense experience as well, yeah, right.
Jim: And that hurt. You know and when we started to deliver Ops it wasn’t the fact that we just stopped doing stuff, tie the ship alongside. No, it’s continuous at sea deterrents here, it’s not going to be broken by a virus so how as a Service are you going to ensure that that happens, and we put some pretty extreme measures in. We isolated each individual on the Base for 14 days before they even started training and then they didn’t get home. Once they were there that was it, so my God, that put a lot of pressure on family during that period of time.
Simon: Because there was no let up.
Jim: We couldn’t afford to let them go home …
Simon: ‘Cos you couldn’t have another 14 days, right.
Jim: … so that was really difficult to the bomber community, I mean genuinely tough and typical Submariners, you know get back, go to see them, “You alright?” “Well, it had to be done Boss, it’s what we do.” Don’t make it right but we do it, so that’s why it’s the recognition. They’ll do it, they’ll do anything and most military people will do anything you ask of them. Submarine Service is 100% that group of people at every level, every Rank. It’s up to the leaders to realise that sometimes that’s wrong. Don’t ask ‘cos if you ask they’ll do it, and if Politicians ask our Seniors, our Seniors will say yes. Just occasionally it would be nice to have a no. Everyone understands it, everyone gets it, so you tell these people this is why you do it.
Simon: And the impact of those constant ‘yes’s’ take a long time to shake out. It’s not like it’s the next day and you can see cause and effect.
Jim: You’re absolutely right. It’s an accumulative effect with looking after people and the military is getting better at it definitely. It’s nowhere near at the level that it should be because of this. There’s human beings at the end of tnhis, and the Navy, you know, Army, Afghanistan, RAF has been involved in lots of stuff all the time, but the Submarine Service in particular also has been on continuous operations but they’re quiet and there is no let up. CASD is CASD and if you’re on Ops in an SSN, no one ever knows what you did other than then people that are there and the people you’re reporting to, so it’s there, but it’s not well understood and you’re right, occasionally if there’s a leave period, you need to be on leave properly, relaxing and give these guys a break in between sea time ‘cos it’s tough, it is tough.
Simon: Did you ever consider, even in your wildest dreams of the early days of thinking where you’d end up?
Jim: No. I mean that’s the beauty of the Navy, and I say it to anyone that will listen to me is if you’re thinking about joining … a career in the military, really think hard about the Navy and in particular Submarine Service, not just ‘cos the Submarine Service is the most interesting, exciting, place to work. The people are incredible. I’m sure that’s the case in all walks of life and the whole military but the Submarine Service is kind of on steroids because you’re in that little steel tube for so long and you all wear the same dolphins which you’ve all qualified. Whether you’re an Officer or a Rating you’ve all done the same qualification. That’s pretty unique. Royal Marines, Green Beret same and there’s quite a lot of similarities in the camaraderie and pride in there, definitely. I can see a lot of similarities there. The pride of that beret is the same pride that we have in our dolphins knowing that you’ve earned it regardless of Rank. But who’d have known? You know, I joined up by accident, I mean literally, loved it straight away. I was very well looked after by some key individuals early on that said, “Get off your arse, stop doing so much drinking.” I’m not sure I took that much notice of that but I did definitely slow it down, “get your qualifications and just let the Navy know that there’s opportunity if you want to go and grab it” and my God, I’ve been lucky and all the way through this I said this and funny enough, Phil Titterton twice and others, I’ve been in the right place at the right time. I’ve always had the jobs that I’ve wanted. I think that’s true and I’ve loved all of them, I’ve met great people in all of them. The key tenet going all the way back through this is that my missus has always supported me all the way through and enjoyed the same camaraderie as I have. She feels as much a part of the Submarine Service as I do. She comes to all the Submarine Memorial do’s and the Submariner Association do’s and absolutely loves it and meets all her old mates so our families are as much part of this journey as we are, so I’ve been really lucky there. That’s enabled me to continue for as long as I have but no, never saw it coming. All the way through, as I say, I thought you get to Lieutenant, you think maybe I could get to Commander. And I think that’s the same for everybody, I think most people would say the same thing. You don’t join up and think I’m going to be 1st Sea Lord but there are one or two that think that. Some of them get there, some of them don’t. So, you do your drive and you think, ‘I wonder where I can get to now?’ and for me it was not a … I did it that way round, I said, “I wonder where I can get to?” rather than “I want to be an Admiral, what do I need to do to get there.” I knew I wanted to be a Captain, I knew I wanted to drive submarines, I knew I wanted to stay in the Submarine Service which limited. As a Submariner, they say, “You’ve got to broaden, you’ve got to get out to get up the food chain” and they’re right, you do, pretty much. Very few people stay so deep specialists and make it al the way up there, and the last step was pure luck. The 1st Sea Lord made it happen and off I went and loved it. Absolutely brilliant, so instead of leaving at 50, I left at 56 and again I’m now in a job again which I kind of fell into (laughs), in BAE, in Barrow.
196 minutes 44 seconds
Simon: What made you leave in the end then?
Jim: I was tired by then.
Simon: Because of the responsibility.
Jim: No, not the responsibility. I was physically tired. Covid was difficult, I could see the pressure that our people were being put under. That’s the bit that has always worried me, is I can see it but I can’t do much about it other than tell those
s that can do something about it to do something about it. I was successful by about 30% I suppose. I mean, you know, not enough. That I found very frustrating. Lots of great people, lots of some very senior people that were on my side and trying tom help, but process got in the way and everyone knew it was the right thing to do. Just get on with it, just do it. You know, it’s the right thing to do, make it happen. So, elements of that were starting to get to me I guess, after the 5 or 6 years saying we said this 6 years ago, we told them all this was going to happen and it’s happening and there’s human beings on the other side of this. And I think over that journey we’d started to learn. I’d certainly learnt more about mental health. I think Covid really jump started us in the Submarine Service to actually talk and think about mental health. Never talk, in the way my generation had dealt with mental health is in the Bar. That’s how we decompressed, you know. Get it all out and have a bit of banter and a bit of a laugh and sometimes there was tears and sometimes there weren’t but you felt better once your hangover had gone. That’s the way we used to cope with it. This generation, they don’t use alcohol in that way. It’s not their thing and it’s probably a good thing actually.
Simon: Yeah, long-term health wise probably.
Jim: I mean there are other things that are more concerning but I think Covid definitely allowed us to open up amongst ourselves . Yeah, it just did. It was the right time for me and you know you’re always looking at what’s next.
Simon: I was going to say, what would be next after that? I mean you’re at the pinnacle aren’t you? There is no more is there?
Jim: Oh no, I mean I was done. There is no more. I could have competed for other jobs but I didn’t want to go into Finance and Capability Management. It’s not what I’ve ever done, I’m an Ops guy, and the other one that … if I hadn’t been 6 years up there, you know being Deputy Comm Ops, DCOM Ops as a Commodore that’d would be a job but I’d been DACOS Ops in there so is that really, is that something I really wanted to go and do? Not really and you see the excitement that the future is bringing with regards to submarine build and where we’re going in the future thank God you know because we need more submarines if we’re to really understand the utility of these things, so again I was lucky …
Simon: To be a …
Jim: Again I was lucky to be in the right place at the right time, spoke to the right person and have ended up their future workforce strategy, to understand how they can build all these submarines and hopefully I’ll have some engagement with the Navy to see how the Navy are going to man all of these submarines.
200 minutes 11 seconds
Simon: So I guess yeah, it’s the R & D development side is it? You’re looking at what the potential … you’re saying I guess in the Navy you’re given the things that you then execute Patrols with but at BAE deciding what’s going to be the tools of the future.
Jim: The same thing happens in the Navy. I mean there are Strategists in the Navy and the people that are doing people planning are there. I know, I’ve already spoken to a coupe of them in this job. Again, friends of mine, at MOD with them. Good people, they get it. The difference I think moving forward, particularly in the Submarine world is there’s a finite resource here and a lot of people want a bit of it and the Navy is part of that, they need a bit of it but so do BAE, so do other people within the submarine enterprise. That’s the bit I’m interested in ‘cos I’ve been trying to see how that’s going to happen in the 6 years that I was there because I could see it, so if I can help on the other side of the wall, yes it’s fascinating. And funny old thing, BAE is full of ex-Submariners. It’s been an easy landing point for me, lots of great friends up there and the people I’m working for are fabulous, genuinely. Yeah, so I’m really happy, which is good.
Simon: And what is the future of the Submarine Service then do you think?
Jim: I think it’s very, very rosy. You’ve seen the Dreadnought Programme is on track. A couple of days ago the steel was cut for the Warspite, the 3rd Dreadnought submarine that will eventually replace the Vanguard Class. SSNRs or whatever submarine replaces the Astute Class is coming along and there’s going to be more of them which is good. You’ll have seen in the Press the Orcas thing, the Australia requirement for nuclear submarines, what does that mean? We don’t know which way they’re going to go at the moment but there’s going to be a role for them, us somewhere. I don’t mean us as BAE, I mean us as Submariners somewhere across the enterprise. Whether we end up building them or they end up buying them, no one knows at this stage what it is that’s going to happen but we need to be ready for it, and that’s going to be another enterprise approach, so the future is hugely rosy I think. I joined the Navy in 1984 and I think at the last count we had 39 submarines I think. You know we’ve got 11 now, so we’ve been managing decline for my entire career and ironically, I guess it’s not irony, just as I leave it starts to grow again. It’s going to take another 10 to 15 years but we’re on the up, we’re on the ascendance again. There’s money, the world is ever changing and there is that realisation again, funny old thing, cyclical isn’t it, making decisions to cut and then 10 years later we go, “Why did we make that decision?” So, let’s have some strategic decisions. That is there now. I can’t see that being reversed. Who knows, maybe it could be? So, I see a bright future, a bright future, so again, I think Submariners past and present need to help in that journey and just telling people what it is that we do and how much fun it is and what great people we are (laughs) and help that journey. The boys and girls currently in charge of our Submarine Service and doing the day-to-day thing are working harder than they should be. They need support.
Simon: Do you think there’s much role of the automation side?
Jim: That’s really interesting. I think we’re seeing in a lot of areas of automation, UAVs, you still need someone, you still need a human somewhere in that chain. I can’t see us going, “Right, the next submarine is going to be completely autonomous.” Sorry, how do you really have the information that that’s getting … yes, smaller versions but you’re still going to need a submarine that’s got humans inside the tube. I think, I could be completely wrong but I can’t see how that would communicate properly or be so intelligent that it would make the right decisions at the right time. Who knows? Who knows what’s going to happen in the next 2 decades? I could be completely wrong, but I don’t see it at this stage.
Simon: This project was funded by the Highstreet HAZ in Gosport Council and through English Heritage as well. The whole kick-off of the whole project was really about … and you’ve spoken a lot about Dolphin that’s been really interesting. The SETT, the Escape Tower was a big part of that, really to help the people of Gosport understand what an amazing contribution they’ve made, not only to the Submarine Service but the Navy and also safety around the world really …
105 minutes 27 seconds
Jim: Yeah, absolutely.
Simon: … to help understand that.
Jim Absolutely, at a really pivotal time of the Submarine Service’s history, you know from it’s inception to the demise of the diesel submarines. Wow! What a journey. What a journey and Gosport’s been integral to that, not just housing MNS Dolphin but of course loads of Submariners ended up buying houses there. Chris is still there. Loads of my mates are still in Gosport. My experience at Dolphin is one of, I think you’ve heard me mention it so many times, a fantastic place to be, fab place to work. We had fun in the Town I got married just down the road in Alverstoke Church. It’s a part of out history, it just is and it always will be and the Tank … I think it’s staying isn’t it? I think it’s listed now, is an iconic, I won’t say beautiful ‘cos it isn’t but it is an iconic structure. Very fond memories of going through that, again from being terrified at the beginning to popping out of the top wanting to do it immediately again. Apparently a bit like parachuting which I’m not ever going to do. Yeah, amazing experience, but time moves on. You know it’s unfortunate we haven’t got any nuclear boats so yeah, that wasn’t going to happen (coughs). And having a School nowhere near submarines, probably not the right thing to do, so I understand it, I can’t say I’m happy about it but it’s happened. Dolphin is our home (coughs) you know we’ve had a number of Reunions from the Perisher Community to others at various stages and we thought Dolphin was going to go and the Chapel at Dolphin is hugely significant to the Submarine Service (coughs). Some of the stories of submarines during the war in and out of … so yeah, I’ve hugely fond memories of … I haven’t got the greatest memories of trying to get out of Gosport on a Friday afternoon, trying to get home. That’s pretty tortuous.
Simon: What about the Pubs around Gosport? Did you have much chance to …
Jim: The George and Dragon and Emma’s, the Joanna’s School of Naval Dancing Gosport Division, yeah I remember that well. Yeah, a number of decent boozers and Curry Houses actually. I don’t think I remember any of them by their real names, I’m not going to …say them by what we used to call them but we used to go in then nonetheless, regularly to all of them. Yeah, it was good, it was good. And I can remember getting the PAZ boat over to Vernon. So much has changed over nearly 40 years. Vernon’s gone, Dryad’s gone, Dolphin’s gone, bloody hell! It was just different and I hope something good happens to Dolphin. Holding my wedding reception in the Dolphin Ward Room Bar there, right on the sea front, it was pretty special, pretty special, and is the home of the Submarine Service, wow! Great! So, let’s see what happens with it. Hopefully something good, and of course the Museum, massively important to our story, always growing, always getting better and better. This process will provide another insight, getting the human story that is so brilliantly told by those that take you round, particularly Alliance, is all a part of the same journey so yeah, the more the merrier.
Simon: Is there anything that we haven’t spoken about that you want to speak about.
Jim: Phew, I don’t think so.
Simon: I haven’t brought up or …
Jim: We’ve been going for what 4 hours?
Simon: It’s been a good session. Well, thank you very much for all of that time and your hospitality as well.
Jim: Yeah, you’re very welcome. No worries.
Simon: Thank you.
Jim: As I said at the beginning, you ask Submariners’ a question, it’s very difficult to shut them up, as you’ve just found out (laughs).
Simon: That’s brilliant, thank you.
Jim: No worries mate.
Interview ends
209 minutes 52 seconds
Transcribed February 2023